I'm preparing to install my new 27 gallon fuel tank I purchased from the factory. I have the 2 portable 6 gallon tanks in there currently. JChaser was kind enough to send me some pics and advice on his install as he has the same boat and did the same fuel tank swap. I want to have all the parts I need in hand before I start and have a couple questions.
1) do I really need a racor fuel filter? I trailer my boat and get gas at a local busy Chevron gas station. The boat is also stored in my garage so not exposed to extreme temp variances and humidity/moisture. Or would a glass filter on the fuel line be sufficient? I'm trying to keep my cost down but at the same time would pay for the racor if needed
2) Do I have to rinse or flush the new tank before install in case of possible dirt or plastic shavings from the manufacturing process? If yes, what would I use to flush it with? Not water I would think
Appreciate any more advice you guys could give me before I get started.
You need a replaceable filter of some kind, that filters down to 10 microns (for a fuel injected engine). Inline filter not good enough for a fuel injected motor. They don't catch small enough particles, and they don't have any ability to filter water.
Racor is the best, both due to how well they filter and the bowl that lets you see if you have crap in your fuel. Cheaper Moeller/Sierra canister styles work to, just change them religiously as they will rust if water-contaminated fuel sits in them.
It's easy to get a slug of rusty, nasty water in your tank from a bad gas station or marina fuel pump.
No need to flush the tank.
My Honda motor has a small water separating fuel filter inside the cowling. Is that not enough :shrug9:
You probably have two on-board filters, a high and low pressure. "Small" is the operative word. They may require a partial tear down of the engine to service.
The idea behind the Moellers or Racors is they are easy to service and replace, have a lot more filtering capacity, and can be serviced on the water. The elements are cheap (though the complete Racor housing and fuel bowl is not).
How do you prime the racor filter? I assume with the bulb on the fuel line? Are the racor filters easy to change on the water if needed?
Prime with the fuel bulb... make take a while, but it works.
With the Racor's, you can see contamination in the fuel bowl. Open the petcock at the bottom of the bowl and drain the filter to get it out, then re-prime and you are good to go (assuming the filter element itself isn't fully clogged with gunk).
The oil-can styles are designed to be changed frequently (I used to do mine twice a year on the Arima, before I switched to Racor). I replace Racor elements once a year.
Fisher; Listen to Threeweight! You need a 10 micron filter........either the Racor or canister will do. Those internal motor filters won't save you. I have the canister style and change it once a year. Mine does fine, but I have good "fuel habits". I'd mount the filter on the inside.......above the fuel tank and against that narrow starboard panel.
Your going to need hoses. West Marine can advise you on that and has it by the foot. Make sure you double clamp the fill hose and "loop" the vent hose in such a way that it doesn't trap water. If your boat didn't come with a factory tank, then you'll (obviously) have to drill some holes. Before drilling, get the parts first. You don't want to go oversize on these. Also, remember, when drilling in fiberglass, start those bits in "reverse". Finally, if you have any questions regarding the accurate location of the fill and vent holes; a call to Arima would probably be your safest bet.
Yat
:yeahthat:
John
I got the install kit from Arima as well. Has all hoses, clamps, vent, and sending unit. About that loop on the vent hose, I remember reading different opinions on that here or somewhere else. Are you saying a standard Loop on the vent hose? I don't think the vent hose they gave me is long enough for that. It also has the vent pre installed on the hose
If it is a trap-style vent that keeps water out, you can probably skip the loop. The idea behind the loop is to prevent water from getting into the vent hose and then into the tank. If you do use a loop, it should be an overhand loop, like this, so fuel can't pool in a low point.
(http://www.cruisingonstrider.us/images/TankAsBuilt.jpg)
This looks like the vent I have. It is a trap vent style.
Mine is a trap style. No loop in my hose.
John
Ok thank you guys! JC, do you recall the size hole saw you used for the fill and vent? I have the same gas cap/fill as you do with the red cap. I will mount in same location. I want to make sure I get that hole right. If it's too small it would be difficult to make it larger with no pilot hole
INstall it!! I had two instances last year that required draining and/ or replacing the filter while on the water. It would be dangerous trying to do the in motor filters.
Placement options abound, just leave more room underneath to make it easier to drain the bowl for samples or purging. I have swapped out for a shorter filter model to help with that.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v367/Kodak45/Boats/Arima%202/20150226_1416231_zpsyhakrczj.jpg)
Thanks for the info guys I will definitely pick up the Racor fuel filter before the install
Your boat will love you for it!!! That's one of the best and cheapest major upgrades you can make for your boat's reliability. Get the Stainless Steel head (yes, it's more money but the aluminum model corrodes in the damp darkness behind the starboard), and carry a spare filter and bowl along with an oil filter wrench that fits the filter size in your tool kit in case the filter gets overwhelmed by a large load of water from a bad fuel station. You just about need a vise and a pipe wrench to remove the bowl from the filter after it's been on there for a year.
Thanks for the advice Mark. I will make sure to keep a spare filter and some more tools in my box. My wife is usually the one to sign for all my packages I have delivered and always says "what did you buy for the boat now!" :facepalm: If I had an explorer vs a sea chaser I'd probably be sleeping in it! :doh: :hoboy:
I don't have a fuel gauge yet but I do have the sending unit pre-installed in my fuel tank. Should I leave the ground wire from the sending unit connected to the negative battery terminal even though I don't have the gauge just to make sure it's grounded and just cap off the pink wire from the sending unit until I get the gauge installed? Thx
(http://www.arimaowners.com/gallery/10/9220-141117200405.png)
Almost done, just waiting on the racor fuel filter and some fittings
That is so clean and new....Ouch......my neck. :whistle:
Quote from: Croaker Stroker on November 14, 2017, 07:07:47 PM
....Ouch......my neck. :whistle:
Why does this forum always make a straight pic sideways :shrug9: :facepalm:
Ok, I fixed it. The pic is now straight! No more sore necks! :rimshot:
:jester: :arms:
I'm going to have to run 90 degree fittings from the racor fuel filter cause there's just not enough room to avoid kinked fuel hoses. Most of the time consumed is from running around trying to find specific parts I need
Looks good, nice and clean.
So did you get sticker shock when you purchased the main fuel hose ? I know I did when I had to replace mine :bigshock: That cut into my beer money :jester:
Quote from: AJFishin on November 14, 2017, 09:34:18 PM
Looks good, nice and clean.
So did you get sticker shock when you purchased the main fuel hose ? I know I did when I had to replace mine :bigshock: That cut into my beer money :jester:
I got sticker shock when I bought the whole thing, tank, install kit, fuel filter, fittings :bigshock:
Quote from: Fisherdv on November 14, 2017, 08:01:49 PM
Quote from: Croaker Stroker on November 14, 2017, 07:07:47 PM
....Ouch......my neck. :whistle:
Why does this forum always make a straight pic sideways :shrug9: :facepalm:
I think Streamfixer does that to the new guys. :shrug9: mine didn't straighten out until after 1000 posts.
Yikes....LOOK....what's going to happen to me when I pass 10,000 posts ???
Quote from: Croaker Stroker on November 14, 2017, 09:51:57 PM
Quote from: Fisherdv on November 14, 2017, 08:01:49 PM
Quote from: Croaker Stroker on November 14, 2017, 07:07:47 PM
....Ouch......my neck. :whistle:
Why does this forum always make a straight pic sideways :shrug9: :facepalm:
I think Streamfixer does that to the new guys. :shrug9: mine didn't straighten out until after 1000 posts.
Yikes....LOOK....what's going to happen to me when I pass 10,000 posts ???
Try and see! One more to go! :applause:
Quote from: Fisherdv on November 14, 2017, 09:44:59 PM
Quote from: AJFishin on November 14, 2017, 09:34:18 PM
Looks good, nice and clean.
So did you get sticker shock when you purchased the main fuel hose ? I know I did when I had to replace mine :bigshock: That cut into my beer money :jester:
I got sticker shock when I bought the whole thing, tank, install kit, fuel filter, fittings :bigshock:
It's amazing how fast that beer fund gets depleted when you have a boat :jester:
Quote from: AJFishin on November 14, 2017, 10:13:31 PM
Quote from: Fisherdv on November 14, 2017, 09:44:59 PM
Quote from: AJFishin on November 14, 2017, 09:34:18 PM
Looks good, nice and clean.
So did you get sticker shock when you purchased the main fuel hose ? I know I did when I had to replace mine :bigshock: That cut into my beer money :jester:
I got sticker shock when I bought the whole thing, tank, install kit, fuel filter, fittings :bigshock:
It's amazing how fast that beer fund gets depleted when you have a boat :jester:
No beer money but I got some Crown! :bigshock: :beerchug:
Quote from: Fisherdv on November 14, 2017, 05:51:45 PM
(http://www.arimaowners.com/gallery/10/9220-141117200405.png)
Almost done, just waiting on the racor fuel filter and some fittings
Darci's Raycor is bolted to the Starboard upright in that area just above the fuel inlet.
You will have room to change the element.
A tuna can is a good size to drain off any watery goo from the clear bowl.
A short section of hose is needed to fully drain things when you change the element.
Thx Darci, that's where I will be mounting the filter. I got some 90 degree elbow fittings for the hoses to the filter connections so I won't have kinked hoses. It's really tight in there
Although mine is not a Racor, so I don't know how much larger the Racor's are, but mine is mounted up there too, with no kinks.
(https://i.imgur.com/qy9Wvefl.jpg)
Mine is the same. It will fit!
John
I'm going to put a quick disconnect on the fitting from the tank, and on the filter outlet. That way if I'm on the water and the filter gets plugged up I can plug in directly to the tank, bypassing the filter if needed. With the 90 degree fittings the hoses point straight down off of the filter leaving much more room. The quick disconnect fittings stick out about an inch or so more and the fuel hoses are pretty stiff
I may be able to run the hoses straight out the back of the filter but I did a mock-up with the filter and I'm not sure I would have room with a quick disconnect. With the 90 degree fittings I can come off the front of the filter and have plenty of room and easy access to the quick disconnect. I'll find out when install it. Is there any problem with fuel being restricted with the 90 degree fittings?
Love the SS filter housing. It's tight in there, but works well. I have one line out to the main and another out to the kicker. I change the filter every spring.
Quote from: Fisherdv on November 15, 2017, 04:31:25 PM
I'm going to put a quick disconnect on the fitting from the tank, and on the filter outlet. That way if I'm on the water and the filter gets plugged up I can plug in directly to the tank, bypassing the filter if needed. With the 90 degree fittings the hoses point straight down off of the filter leaving much more room. The quick disconnect fittings stick out about an inch or so more and the fuel hoses are pretty stiff
If the filter gets plugged up on the water, you're not going to want to run that fuel directly into the engine. You'll just end up with more problems. Carry spare filters instead, eliminate the QD's, and the extra chance of leaks. (My $0.02.)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Peddler on November 15, 2017, 06:09:10 PM
Quote from: Fisherdv on November 15, 2017, 04:31:25 PM
I'm going to put a quick disconnect on the fitting from the tank, and on the filter outlet. That way if I'm on the water and the filter gets plugged up I can plug in directly to the tank, bypassing the filter if needed. With the 90 degree fittings the hoses point straight down off of the filter leaving much more room. The quick disconnect fittings stick out about an inch or so more and the fuel hoses are pretty stiff
If the filter gets plugged up on the water, you're not going to want to run that fuel directly into the engine. You'll just end up with more problems. Carry spare filters instead, eliminate the QD's, and the extra chance of leaks. (My $0.02.)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I agree! I've never found a drop of water or speck of dirt in my fuel. If my filter was plugged, last thing I would want to do is bypass it and tap into the fouled tank. Onboard I keep a separate emergency tank of 5 gallons with a new fuel line coiled up ready to use. Should I have fuel trouble on the water, I will disconnect at the motor and connect my emergency fuel directly and try to get home ASAP...on the kicker if necessary to conserve fuel.
The filter top I got has 1/4 npt threads, should I have gotten 3/8? The quick disconnect on my motor now is a 1/4 npt quick disconnect. So would I benefit any from having a 3/8 filter housing? The motor is only 60 hp but I would rather more flow than to little :shrug9:
If your motor has 1/4, I'd stick with 1/4.
3/8 provides greater flow, but I can't imagine your motor is going to need it. My Honda 225 uses 3/8... my old Suzuki 90 used 5/16.
Fisher - do you have room under the port sponson for a portable tank? That way you could run your Honda from a remote tank in the event you have an issue with your fuel filter?
M D
Quote from: milos dad on November 16, 2017, 08:15:50 AM
Fisher - do you have room under the port sponson for a portable tank? That way you could run your Honda from a remote tank in the event you have an issue with your fuel filter?
M D
M D, yes I may just have enough room to put a portable 3 gallon tank there. I would like to have at least one quick disconnect on the line from the motor so I could just plug into the portable if needed without removing hose clamps. Im just waiting on a few fittings I had to order online because my local WM didn't have them in stock
I use a portable 3 gallon tank as a backup as well, with a Yamaha fuel line attached.
John
I like John's idea, where you just have to disconnect the built-in tank connection at the Honda, and re-connect with the portable.
Why not just carry a spare filter element and appropriate strap wrenches? That's what everyone I know does.
The whole point of having the Racor is to have a very good water separating fuel filter that filters down to 10 microns. If it gets a slug of water, you can drain it. If it gets so plugged up it causes a fuel restriction, you can swap it out in 3 or 4 minutes (make sure you put a little grease on the rubber seals and on the plastic bowl threads ever time you install a new one to make them easier to change).
I can see wanting a second tank if you want to increase your range... but bypassing a Racor fuel filter to run a portable tank in case you have bad fuel issues seems kinda silly to me. Like bypassing the oil filter in your car and running a second oil tank in case you have an oil filter restriction.
It can be a little tough to get the clear bowl off the filter element when replacing the element. Tough to make a strap wrench hold, and channel locks will break the fins. Racor makes a wrench specifically for this... West Marine carries them.
https://www.westmarine.com/buy/racor--fuel-filter-bowl-wrench--1930551?cm_mmc=PS-_-Google-_-GSC%2520-%2520Product%2520Type-_-1930551&product_id=1930551&adpos=1o1&creative=108421551724&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&mrkgadid=3076578854&mrkgcl=481&rkg_id=h-3a4775a35269cae5d27a3164c2b0c635_t-1510860631&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIp--TqurD1wIVhK_sCh3zQwR_EAkYASABEgKZGfD_BwE
I actually have a spare filter as well.. Overkill maybe, but I like having the extra 3 gallons to get me home if I need it..
J.
Thx for the link for the bowl wrench. I do have a spare filter I will keep on board, I bought a Seirra kit that came with a Seirra filter but I got a racor filter with bowl S3213 that I will use as the main and will keep the Seirra filter for backup if needed. It was only a few dollars more for the whole kit so I basically got a spare filter for a couple dollars
So just to be clear on the filter swap on the water would I connect a small length of hose to the bowl drain, open the petcock, drain into a small container with a lid, put on new filter, prime fuel bulb and be on my way? Just want to be sure I know how to do it correctly before hand.
The Racor filters use a fuel bowl that is a separate part than the actual filter. 3WT was saying that it is REALLY hard to unscrew the plastic bowl from the filter after it has been on for a year. I carry a spare filter and a spare bowl and an oil filter strap wrench that is correctly sized to unscrew the filter from the head bracket. I struggle to remove the bowl even at home using a money wrench and vise or a strap wrench.
You can also use a valve to select between your tanks.
Quote from: Threeweight on November 16, 2017, 11:24:28 AM
Why not just carry a spare filter element and appropriate strap wrenches? That's what everyone I know does.
I can see wanting a second tank if you want to increase your range... but bypassing a Racor fuel filter to run a portable tank in case you have bad fuel issues seems kinda silly to me. Like bypassing the oil filter in your car and running a second oil tank in case you have an oil filter restriction.
Here's my theory on the spare tank and fuel line:
If I'm out on the water and having what I think is a fuel related issue, it might be something in the fuel...or it could be a bad fuel line....or a bad primer bulb.... or maybe it isn't a fuel related issue at all and I just don't know what the problem is. I could waste a lot of time changing a filter, fingers' crossed that it fixes the issue....but how much bad fuel is already in the fuel line from the filter to the motor?
So I pull out my spare fuel tank with what I know is fresh gas, attach a new fuel line directly to the motor, and see what happens. Hopefully the issue is solved and I'm on my way. I can get back to the dock and probably head home to take my time troubleshooting. If it doesn't solve the issue, I now know I have to look at the motor itself.
I also keep the spare 5 gallons of gas for an emergency....rather than have to add fuel to a rocking boat, I disconnect at the motor and plug in my 5 gallons. I can also pass this 5 gallon tank over to another boater in need.
FC, that makes sense to me and would be an easy way to see if it is the main fuel supply that's contaminated. However, if you filled main tank and portable tank at the same pump then they would both be contaminated. I do like the idea of having both a spare filter, and a portable tank, especially if fishing offshore. Also many of the small to midsize Honda motors run directly off of a portable fuel tank with no filter at all in between the motor and the tank. A lot of smaller boats are sold that way. So in an emergency I don't see it being a problem running the motor directly from the spare, portable tank to get back if needed
First Cabin has a good approach if you only have one onboard tank. I always carried a spare tank or two before having saddle tanks.
However, even portable tanks can be plumbed into a fuel valve and you can easily switch between tanks with the lever. I use that option to empty the main tank so I can do maintenance on the bilge pumps, level the boat according to weight distribution and to use the oldest fuel next. You can still use a connector at the tank end of the line so you can pull the portable tanks out or swap them or whatever. I plumb all three fuel lines into the Racor fuel filter. I don't think FC was suggesting not to carry a spare filter regardless of where you are using the boat.
I keep my spare 5 gallon tank separate and only use it for an emergency. I don't fill it at the same time, at the same place, that I'm filling the main tank, and I only store non-ethanol fuel.
I purposely don't want it plumbed through a valve or a filter or anything currently in use that might be the source of the problem. Plug it in directly to the motor and get home as quickly as possible.
Of course in 20 years I've never needed it, so sometimes I wonder why I bother! Gives me a supply of lawnmower fuel every spring anyway!
I've never found the valve to be a problem, but I can switch between fuel tanks as in the time that one of the saddles took on seawater due to rough conditions and a leaky fuel cap gasket. Multiple fuel tanks no matter how you have them plumbed is a great idea as long as you keep the fuel fresh.
Isn't it simpler to just use good fuel, a good filter, stay up on your maintenance, and don't let fuel sit and go bad? And if the boat does sit, keep stabilizer in the tank to prevent the fuel from forming gum and varnish that could plug something up?
When I did long runs in my old 17', I used to carry a 12 gallon deck tank plumbed into my system. It was really useful, but given the stuff I saw come out of marina fuel pumps into that tank there's no way I'd want it going to a fuel injected motor without a good filter in front of it.
Quote from: Threeweight on November 16, 2017, 11:14:01 PM
Isn't it simpler to just use good fuel, a good filter, stay up on your maintenance, and don't let fuel sit and go bad? And if the boat does sit, keep stabilizer in the tank to prevent the fuel from forming gum and varnish that could plug something up?
:yeahthat: Since I trailer my boat I always fill up at a busy Chevron gas station and always add stabil 360 to the fuel. Every couple of tanks if trolling a lot I'll add some Mercury quickleen (basically Techron) to keep things clean. By having good fuel and maintenance habits you should be able to eliminate any fuel related problems or clogged filters in the first place. But still no harm in being well prepared having a spare filter and portable tank for peace of mind
Before fueling your boat, always fill your tow vehicle first. I'd consider this one of the "good fuel habits" we should practice. Generally speaking, if there's water or contaminants at the bottom of a station's tank, there's a good chance that's what will come-up first. When I got my new motor (after 21 years), and was forced to removed the tank, I was amazed to see how clean it was. There was just a very small amount of fine black dust-like matter at the bottom. Interesting as well, is when dumping the fuel filter once a year into a clear container, I can never recall seeing any contamination. Like Fisher, I always fuel-up at a busy local station as well. I think this could be considered one of the most important of the "good fuel habits".
Yat
Can't wait to try out the boat with the new tank installed. The install was pretty straight forward. Most of the time consumed was waiting/finding all the fuel fittings I needed. I learned that doing a test fit with the hole saw for the filler cap in a piece of plywood first was a good idea. It measures 1 1/8, but that was a tad to small, it's actually 1 1/4. I should have a pretty good range now with such a fuel efficient motor.
You will love it.
J.
Quote from: J Chaser on November 21, 2017, 04:13:14 PM
You will love it.
J.
Thx for the help JChaser, and thx to the members, and Terry (COB), and Belinda for getting the tank out to me. Appreciate it.
Now I need to install a fuel gauge.
Fisher; I wouldn't bother with the fuel gauge. One experience with a friend's boat that ran out of fuel (when the gauge said otherwise) is all it took for me to lose total confidence in those things. Checking the fuel level in these little Arimas by simply looking at the tank is easy enough........and (IMO) a lot more comforting. In fact, I'd be willing to bet, you'll find yourself looking at that tank just to be sure the gauge is correct. :jester:
Yat
Your right, even if I had the gauge I would still look at the tank to be sure. I was thinking the gauge would give me a ballpark estimate. I have a 3-rod holder, knife, plyers, and sometimes lures and fishing poles on that back panel so it's kind of a pain to take it off frequently. I would like to eventually get an NMEA 2000 compatible ff/gps so I can network my motor and see real time data and fuel burn.
Agree on the fuel gauges, I don't bother to even look at them. Its easy to gauge by sight on the Arimas, most my fishing trips use about 1/4 to 1/2 a tank so I fill up with Chevron after every outing. My second tank in the cuddy is aluminum and does have a gauge but I rarely use the cuddy tank.
This past year I was out on a boat with a 100 gallon tank that read we had at least 1/4 tank, we wisely decided we had better fill up for our short planned trip rather than push it. It took over 95 gallons of fuel meaning at a 1/4 tank that gauge was off by 20 gallons - never trust a gauge :doh:
Starting with an empty tank- preferably at a marina with the boat in the water, add five gallons and mark the level on the tank and then repeat for wash 5 gallons as you fill it up. You'll always have a reliable fuel measure.
My tank came pre-marked in 5 gallon increments. I would still like to have the NMEA 2000 fuel burn data. I would really like to see the fuel burn for different engine rpms
That is cool ! Premarked !! :clap:
The rest of us have to use a sharpie. :jester:
BTW....Does your metal sender have a ground wire ?
Yes the sender does have a ground wire I hooked it up to the negative side of the battery I do not have a gauge yet though
So I filled the tank for the first time today and I could not get the gas to flow. It kept on spilling out the neck. I could only pump at a trickle. I have the vent and everything. It is the factory tank. What could be the problem? Took about 10 minutes just to pump 10 gallons of gas
I wonder if the vent is somehow stuck?
Not normal.
J.
I even unsrewed that vent cap????? Very frustrating, I spilled a lot of gas in my splash well. The gas just would not go down for some reason :shrug9:
Here's some pics. The vent is in the same spot as lots of pics I've seen of a factory install. JC, I couldn't put the vent in the same spot as you because I have a flush mount rod holder there. I even took off the cap for the vent and still gas will not go down fast enough
Can you blow freely thru the vent line with the filler cap off? Also check the vent to make sure it is free from any obstructions, some of them have a check valve to prevent any fuel from leaking out.
Jim
That is a bummer, does not sound right. With a stock tank I don't recall any problems - no issues with your old tank? I am guessing not.
In your photo the vent hose looks like it is collapsing? Could be an optical illusion. Your filler neck is short but I don't see that being a problem. Did it get easier after so many gallons were pumped in? Or was it stubborn the whole way?
It was stubborn the whole way. The vent hose is not collapsed, no kinks. I had to use lower quality pics so I could post them. It is a trap style vent so maybe it has a check valve as Hydroman mentioned that could be stuck. I guess one way to know for sure would be to disconnect the vent hose at the tank and only fill it halfway so it doesn't overflow out the tank vent hole. The filler neck from the tank has a lip where the hose connects to the tank so I wonder if the gas gets caught up on that lip? I ran the boat for about 10 miles or so and it ran fine. If the tank was not venting wouldn't that restrict the flow to the motor? Also, I opened the cap slowly and did not here any hiss or pressure build up in the tank, the tank was not sunkin either
This is the vent I have
I'm a little confused here.
Where is the gas coming out from? Is it coming out from the vent or filler cap when your filling up?
Your set up looks exactly like mine, but I have the old gas lid that lifts up and I can put a stick all the way in and down to the bottom of the tank with nothing stopping it.
Maybe try poking a long clean wooden dowel down the filler fuel hose to make sure there's obstruction down there.
Or another option might be removing the fuel filler hose or other hoses to see what's happening.
Once I had a similar issue with gas pouring out when I was filling up.
It was a stupid weird problem, it was the angle of the fuel pumps metal nozzle. If the nozzle was at an angle and the nozzle was not inserted all the way in, the fast flowing gas would spray fuel out of the fuel hose and back out into my splash well. To correct it I pull the safety boot on the pump nozzle all the way back and push that metal nozzle all the way in, while holding it in place while filling up, also not letting the nozzle rest against the fuel hose.
The funny thing is, I only have this issue at Chevron's, go figure :shrug9
Just my :twocents:
AJ, the gas comes out the filler while pumping. I tried the pump nozzle all the way in, pulled back no help. It was a Chevron station too. Took a :arms: amount of time just to pump 10 gallons! Kind of embarrassing with all the people at the gas station watching all that gas spill out my splash well drain hole :doh:
Not sure if this will be of any help.
https://www.boatingmag.com/five-boat-fuel-vent-tips
Or it could be a Germlin in there
(https://i.imgur.com/LDFq0MEt.png)
Quote from: AJFishin on November 24, 2017, 10:14:30 PM
Not sure if this will be of any help.
https://www.boatingmag.com/five-boat-fuel-vent-tips
Or it could be a Germlin in there
(https://i.imgur.com/LDFq0MEt.png)
Funny I just read that article while the wife was shopping. I dug a little deeper and it seems quite a few Arima owners had the same problem. Do I need to shove a funnel through the fill hose straight through into the tank? :hoboy: :doh: :shrug9:
Quote from: Hydroman on November 24, 2017, 06:45:40 PM
Can you blow freely thru the vent line with the filler cap off? Also check the vent to make sure it is free from any obstructions, some of them have a check valve to prevent any fuel from leaking out.
Jim
Have you tried this, blowing in the vent hose? Maybe take the bottom part of your vent hose off of the tank and blow in the hose and see if air is coming out??
Heading out to garage now to try it
The 90 degree vent part, looks like it has a slot for a screwdriver to be inserted. If so can that be turned to maybe "open up" the vent to allow it to breathe?
Quote from: AJFishin on November 24, 2017, 11:02:47 PM
The 90 degree vent part, looks like it has a slot for a screwdriver to be inserted. If so can that be turned to maybe "open up" the vent to allow it to breathe?
I took that whole vent cap off while fueling, no help. I disconnected vent hose from tank end and yes, I can blow through it freely
That vent hole coming off of the tank seems awfully small. Click on the picture to make it straight I don't know why they always come out sideways
Strange. ??
Can you blow into the tank vent ? (With the fill cap off)
CS has a good idea.
That does look awfully small.. I'll have to take a look at mine in the morning.
Hope you can get fixed.
The 48 gallon tank on my 21 can be hard to fill. I've learned to go really slaw filling at first then increase flow and can usually get to full throttle.
Quote from: Croaker Stroker on November 24, 2017, 11:14:53 PM
Strange. ??
Can you blow into the tank vent ? (With the fill cap off)
I will try that in the morning
I think part of the problem is the filler neck on the tank itself is thick, so when the fuel is running down the hose it gets caught up on the thickness of the tank neck :shrug9:
You'll figure it out. :beerchug:
Fisher:
I have the exact same rig as you. I have to fill my tank slowly as well. That said, if your estimate of being able to pump only 10 gallons in 10 minutes is correct, then it could be that the vent fixture is restricted in some way. Just so you know, I can probably pump fuel about twice as fast as you. And yes, pumping "full throttle" will cause fuel to blow back out of my filler as well. Sometimes I think these vents are either a bit too small or are inherently restrictive for a reason. Remember, they do have to keep water "out" of the tank, right? Still.....seems you should be able to fill at least as fast as I can. :shrug9:
Yat
I took some pictures of mine, for your reference, which looks exactly like your set up. I also did a couple measurements of the neck the vent hose goes into.
(https://i.imgur.com/XBZ6ZPc.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/fKoDI3Xl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/eJvQCtWl.jpg)
Here's looking down through my gas filler hose to the filler neck of the tank.
(https://i.imgur.com/1bhUEvzl.jpg)
Wow, thanks for that AJ! Ya ours look exactly the same, looks like the vent from the tank is only about 3/8. I'm heading out again today for some afternoon fishing so I'll see what I can do as far as the pump nozzle goes. May try to hold it in different positions/angles and see if that helps. If not it's going to be a sloooooowwwww process. :doh: :gone_fishing:
Are you filling your tank at a station that has the vapor recovery system on the pump handle?
Also you problem maybe cause due to the short distance from the filler and tank. The end of the pump fill may not be aligned with the tank opening and is sitting on the ledge and causing a restriction. Might try not sticking the pump nozzle so deep in the filler.
Jim
Quote from: Hydroman on November 25, 2017, 10:12:19 AM
Are you filling your tank at a station that has the vapor recovery system on the pump handle?
Also you problem maybe cause due to the short distance from the filler and tank. The end of the pump fill may not be aligned with the tank opening and is sitting on the ledge and causing a restriction. Might try not sticking the pump nozzle so deep in the filler.
Jim
Yes, it's a Chevron station with vapor recovery. The filler hose does have a bit of a curve to it so it's not a straight shot into the tank. I also think the gas gets caught on that lip
Try going to a Shell or 76 and see if you get the same issues. I go to 76 and have no issues now, knock on wood. But some Chevron stations can be a PITA when filling up the boat.
Enjoy fishing :gone_fishing:
The station I use does not have vapor recovery hoses. Maybe that's the problem?? :shrug9:
Yat
Newer fuel tanks (2016 and later) are designed to be pressurized to 1 psi to reduce emissions, and the vent lines typically run through a charcoal canister of some kind. Maybe quiz Arima and see if the vent fitting they used is one of the newer designs that only vents under pressure.
My other though to check and make sure you do not have any kind of low point in the vent line. If liquid fuel splashes up into that low point and can't exit, it will cause a vapor lock that prevents venting. With that style vent/P-Trap you really don't want more than a few inches of slack in the vent line when it is attached.
Filler tank vent hole is plenty big, I'd think. You are venting air, not liquid. That cover that screws off the vent is for inspecting/cleaning it, or testing it with backpressure from an air tank. The actual guts of the trap are inside the main plastic housing.
Sounds like those larger tanks have this issue, maybe too much tank area to vent quickly........looks like you will need patience at the pumps.
May not help much but you could chamfer the ID of the filler on your tank, it may cut the splash some when filling :shrug9:
Quote from: Rokefin on November 25, 2017, 12:39:35 PM
Sounds like those larger tanks have this issue, maybe too much tank area to vent quickly........looks like you will need patience at the pumps.
May not help much but you could chamfer the ID of the filler on your tank, it may cut the splash some when filling :shrug9:
I thought about doing that, but that would involve draining gas and flushing all the shavings out of the tank. 3wt, AJFISHIN has the same tank and vent as I do and his is the older one.
I think the only difference between the new and old tank is the material (new stuff is alcohol resistant and won't leech anything through the plastic). From what you are describing, I think you have a vent problem, not a problem with the fill.
When the motor is running, you are pulling air into the tank (to replace fuel volume) rather than pushing it out (when you fill the tank, replacing air volume with fuel). The volume exchanged is several orders of magnitude greater when you fill up, as well. A stuck check valve could explain that, or that vent fitting on the tank itself could be undersized on it's ID due coming out of the mold wrong, or not being cleaned up enough.
As far as the fill goes, as long as the ID of the tank fill fitting is larger than the diameter of the gas pump nozzle at the fuel station, you shouldn't overwhelm the fill. But if the tank can't vent air fast enough it will cause back pressure and then you slosh fuel out of the fill opening. On new boats with the pressurize fuel system, this is VERY common problem (don't ask me how I know this.) My 100 gallon tank uses the same 5/8" transom vent fitting and hose as yours, but has a 2nd vent in the fuel fill fitting itself that lets back pressure out
I'd ask the guys at Arima for their thoughts on Monday.
Try disconnecting the vent hose from the fitting, and then attempt to fill again. It'd rule out the fitting being the problem.
Quote from: Peddler on November 25, 2017, 06:04:41 PM
Try disconnecting the vent hose from the fitting, and then attempt to fill again. It'd rule out the fitting being the problem.
I did that only I disconnected the vent hose from the tank side. NOT a smart idea! It filled fast, but it was squirting out that vent hole on the tank. :doh: On the plus side no problems while running the boat (fished two days now). This seems like a common problem on these Arima/Inca tanks. I guess I'll either have to think of a fix or just live with a very slow pump time. I think the problem is the size of the vent hole off the tank. 3wt, does your new can also fill slow?
@ JChaser, did you say you do not have any problems filling with the same tank and vent? I wonder what's different?
It sounds like that hole is to small and not allowing enough air to escape the tank when you're filling up.
Did you measure the vent hole? If it's a small diameter maybe run the gas out and drill out the vent hole some.
I had to siphon gas out of my tank one time, not hard to do. Bought a 5 gallon tank at Harbor freight and put the gas in my truck.
My thoughts on drilling it out. Lay the tank on the side, stick a shop vac hose inside to collect the shavings.
I know it's a PITA, but just a thought. :shrug9:
Ya that would be a PITA to take it out again. Maybe when it comes time to clean out the bilge or something. I'm afraid if I drill out the vent it may get to thin and collapse when lightly clamped, not sure though it is kinda thick. My vent hole looks about the same as yours. Just by looking last night I would guess 3/8 or so. Funny that JChaser has the same setup as we do and he said he has no problems. Maybe your right about the Chevron pumps? It's really the only good grade gas near me. There's a few no name gas stations but I don't trust the gas
I think your going to find the openings on these vents are too small to handle "all" of the venting required when filling.............that is, unless filling takes place very slowly. You don't want to block the filler too much when fueling. When I fill my tank, it seems like much of the venting takes place back up the filler neck. Before making any modifications to the tank, I would experiment with the nozzle placement and see what happens.
Yat
You know, I did play with the nozzle placement and even pulled back the boot by hand and held the nozzle a bit higher so there would be some venting out the filler but no help. Maybe the flowing gas seals it off and doesn't allow venting. By the way I should be officially a "fisherman" now after this post! :gone_fishing:
AJFISHIN, after comparing the pics of your tank vent vs. mine yours does appear to have a bit larger hole. Maybe I do need to drill it out just a bit to at least 3/8. If so I'd really like to do it without draining and removing the tank. I could hold a vacuum to it while drilling and hope it catches all the shavings, but if not the fuel filter shouldn't let the particles through. I could change the filter after a couple tanks? This may well be the problem
Yes, I suppose you could drill-out the tank vent, but I wouldn't open so much that the wall of that tank vent stanchion gets too thin. Then, there's still the question of the opening inside the vent fixture itself, I guess. I must admit, this one is a bit perplexing.
Yat
Quote from: Fisherdv on November 25, 2017, 06:19:38 PMI did that only I disconnected the vent hose from the tank side. NOT a smart idea! It filled fast, but it was squirting out that vent hole on the tank.
If it filled fast, that would seem to indicate your problem isn't the diameter of the vent fitting. The diameter is the same whether the hose is attached or not. I'd suspect either the hose or the P-trap.
My new boat's tank was designed to operate under pressure... 1 PSI required in the tank before it will vent. It has a vent on the stern like yours, then a second vent under the fuel cap. Fuel cap vent is supposed to let the tank vent freely when the cap is off at the fuel pump. It "mostly" works... I can pump 50-60 gallons in as fast as the pump will put it out, but the last 10-15 gallons is a giant PITA.
Try taking off the P-trap and stick the vent hose out the hole into the motorwell. If it fills fast, then you found the culprit.
Looks like there is some sort of screen/filter in those contraptions. If it gets wet with fuel, it might not pass air or gas.
Both Peddler and Croaker have suggested removing vent hose from fitting and see if problem is resolved. I would do this before doing anything else to the tank.
Ok, I will try that at next fill up. I tried disconnecting the vent hose from the tank and I can blow air through the vent
Quote from: blindmonkey on November 26, 2017, 11:45:22 AM
Both Peddler and Croaker have suggested removing vent hose from fitting and see if problem is resolved. I would do this before doing anything else to the tank.
Also just a thought if that works, maybe you need to get a different vent or exchange the one you have ?
I've seen online some people that are using the Attwood 66023-1 or Premier Boat Fuel Vent 7000-2164
(or something similar), and then added inline, which is expensive, a Racor Fuel/Air Separator LG50.
I know it's expensive, maybe not worth it, and not sure if this is something that would be better then what you currently have. But it's just thought and I figured I'd toss it out there and see what the consensus is. :shrug9:
If that would solve my problem I would pay the money for it. Not sure though, what's funny is that I have no problem with me blowing air through the vent hose with the Atwood p-trap still on. Maybe it's restricting just a bit to much but I don't notice it. That racor LG50 may also restrict air flow. Anything labeled EPA compliant or let's less vapor in the air has to be restrictive in some way. Most EPA compliant portable tanks don't vent at all and swell up like balloons. I'm gonna try though as a last resort taking the p trap vent off and filling with a straight open vent hose. Gas will probably end up spitting out that hose though! :doh:
I would also emphasize again making sure you have no low point of any kind to trap fuel. Snagged this graphic off The Hull Truth... this shows the fill line, but the same thing applies to the vent line.
(http://www.classicparker.com/phpBB2/files/fuel_195.gif)
You want it like this (minus the dumb little fuel whistle):
(http://www.bartonmarine.com/images/fuel_whistle_diagram.gif)
Quote from: Threeweight on November 26, 2017, 09:33:04 AM
Quote from: Fisherdv on November 25, 2017, 06:19:38 PMI did that only I disconnected the vent hose from the tank side. NOT a smart idea! It filled fast, but it was squirting out that vent hole on the tank.
If it filled fast, that would seem to indicate your problem isn't the diameter of the vent fitting. The diameter is the same whether the hose is attached or not. I'd suspect either the hose or the P-trap.
3wt, if with the vent hose disconnected at the tank and while filling with an almost empty tank and fuel was squirting out the vent hole on the tank (no hose) wouldn't that indicate the hole is to small and too much pressure is building up? How can the fuel with a near empty tank travel about 12 inches up and out that vent hole if not? I would think with a larger vent hole the fuel would stay down? Kinda like filling a portable tank with the cap off?
Quote from: Threeweight on November 27, 2017, 03:20:59 PM
I would also emphasize again making sure you have no low point of any kind to trap fuel. Snagged this graphic off The Hull Truth... this shows the fill line, but the same thing applies to the vent line.
(http://www.classicparker.com/phpBB2/files/fuel_195.gif)
You want it like this (minus the dumb little fuel whistle):
(http://www.bartonmarine.com/images/fuel_whistle_diagram.gif)
mine looks like the bottom picture, see the pics earlier on
Quote from: Fisherdv on November 24, 2017, 11:13:02 PM
That vent hole coming off of the tank seems awfully small. Click on the picture to make it straight I don't know why they always come out sideways
Just a side note on how these tanks are manufactured: They are made via rotation molding which involves pouring flakes of plastic into a mold and rotating the mold while heating until the plastic melts and forms a solid wall. The outside dimensions will be that of the mold but the inside dimensions are based on how much plastic they added to the mold. Being a gas tank, I suspect that they may measure the tank's wall thickness to ensure enough material was introduced to the mold but I seriously doubt that they would check the wall thickness around the vent.
You photo shows that it's much thicker in the vent than it likely is around the rest of the tank's walls. I don't know if this is your problem but I would open that vent up
Danno's post is spot on the conversation I had with Don on how the tanks are made and his solution.
Quote from: Danno on November 27, 2017, 03:57:33 PM
Quote from: Fisherdv on November 24, 2017, 11:13:02 PM
That vent hole coming off of the tank seems awfully small. Click on the picture to make it straight I don't know why they always come out sideways
Just a side note on how these tanks are manufactured: They are made via rotation molding which involves pouring flakes of plastic into a mold and rotating the mold while heating until the plastic melts and forms a solid wall. The outside dimensions will be that of the mold but the inside dimensions are based on how much plastic they added to the mold. Being a gas tank, I suspect that they may measure the tank's wall thickness to ensure enough material was introduced to the mold but I seriously doubt that they would check the wall thickness around the vent.
You photo shows that it's much thicker in the vent than it likely is around the rest of the tank's walls. I don't know if this is your problem but I would open that vent up
The vent hole AND the filler hole are both much thicker than the rest of the tank. If all else fails I may have no choice
Quote from: Chief of the Boat on November 27, 2017, 04:43:09 PM
Danno's post is spot on the conversation I had with Don on how the tanks are made and his solution.
So is Don recommending drilling out the vent hole some? That would be difficult to not get shavings in the tank.If I held a vacuum while I drill it might not be a good idea to suck fuel fumes though a vacuum motor, even with the tank drained, I'm sure there would be a lot of fumes :shrug9:
Quote from: Fisherdv on November 27, 2017, 03:24:53 PM
3wt, if with the vent hose disconnected at the tank and while filling with an almost empty tank and fuel was squirting out the vent hole on the tank (no hose) wouldn't that indicate the hole is to small and too much pressure is building up? How can the fuel with a near empty tank travel about 12 inches up and out that vent hole if not? I would think with a larger vent hole the fuel would stay down? Kinda like filling a portable tank with the cap off?
Gas is going to splash and foam from the 2-3' drop from the fuel pump nozzle to the liquid fuel in your tank. That's going to get fuel up into your vent hose, which is why you want the vent mounted as high as possible, and the hose as vertical as possible to ensure no opportunity for fuel to pool and block venting. If you pumped gas into the tank with no vent hose attached, it makes sense that it would splash/squirt fuel up out of the vent.
I don't think it hurts anything to ream out the vent opening a bit, other than some concern about plastic shavings going into the tank.
Another factor maybe worth considering is what angle the boat sits at when on the trailer at the fuel pump. If it sits at an angle with the nose down, that could cause issues with fuel splashing back up through through the fill and vent with both of them located at the front of the tank.
What would be the safest, and cleanest way to drill out the vent hole? Thick grease on the drill bit to catch the shavings, kinda like chasing a threads in an engine block? Thank you guys for your patience on this :bowdown:
Try making the vent hose as vertical as possible first so no low areas exist first as per 3weights suggestion. From the photo posted it looks like it has extra length that is causing low spots near the tank which would hold gas and restrict air flow. Mine is almost vertical.
Quote from: blindmonkey on November 27, 2017, 05:50:31 PM
Try making the vent hose as vertical as possible first so no low areas exist first as per 3weights suggestion. From the photo posted it looks like it has extra length that is causing low spots near the tank which would hold gas and restrict air flow. Mine is almost vertical.
I did cut some length off of the vent hose to make it more straight and didnt help
Drill motors make sparks.
Yeah I thought about the drill making sparks to, probably not a good idea. I measured the vent hole coming off of the tank and it is only a quarter inch inner diameter going to a five eights inner diameter hose. I don't think it's the vent P-trap because I can blow through it with no problem
Quote from: Fisherdv on November 27, 2017, 06:06:28 PM
Yeah I thought about the drill making sparks to, probably not a good idea. I measured the vent hole coming off of the tank and it is only a quarter inch inner diameter going to a five eights inner diameter hose. I don't think it's the vent P-trap because I can blow through it with no problem
But you are blowing through it when it is dry. I think when gas burps up into the p-trap it may be designed to shut.
Your tank fills fast with the vent open. If you called the tank manufacturer, they could tell you if 1/4" vent is adequate.
Do you think if I try to fill up with the P-trap disconnected from the hose that I'll get gas squirting out of that open hose?
Quote from: Fisherdv on November 27, 2017, 06:14:11 PM
Do you think if I try to fill up with the P-trap disconnected from the hose that I'll get gas squirting out of that open hose?
I don't know. Probably only when your tank is full.
All of the earlier boats had tanks vented in this way. Just a hose overboard, or into the motor well, and a chrome scoop to prevent water intrusion.
(http://media.marine-products.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/650x650/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/9/-/9-0509dp4chr.jpg)
... actually, yours looks designed to prevent water intrusion. (Instead of a loop in your vent line). Looks restrictive ?
I am not sold on those new fangled contraptions. :hoboy: :jester:
.
.
.
(http://www.plastimo.com/media/catalog/product/p/l/pla_19262___1.jpg)
Yeah I think all the EPA stuff has really gone too far. If you look at the EPA portable tanks they don't vent into the atmosphere but when you open the cap you get like 10 times as much coming out all at once how does that save the atmosphere? And if the P-trap vent that I have is supposed to save the atmosphere how does that help when I'm spilling gallons of fuel on the ground while filling? :hoboy: I can only imagine the set ups that vent into the charcoal canister's
It looks to me like your fuel tank vent is smaller then what the guidelines say it should be.
Your fuel tank vent looks to be about a 1/4". Have you measured it?
I think what Danno said on pg 5 is right about the factory not measuring the thickness of that tank vent.
From the USCG regarding the size of fuel tank vents:
(https://i.imgur.com/pLFlX3v.png)
Here's a link for the USCG, page 34.
http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/1/AssetManager/ABYC.1002.01.pdf
Here's another link outlining the ID of a boats fuel tank vents:
https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/boat-examination/non-private-boats/part-2-inboard-engines/vent-pipes/
Quote from: AJFishin on November 27, 2017, 09:47:41 PM
It looks to me like your fuel tank vent is smaller then what the guidelines say it should be.
Your fuel tank vent looks to be about a 1/4". Have you measured it?
I think what Danno said on pg 5 is right about the factory not measuring the thickness of that tank vent.
From the USCG regarding the size of fuel tank vents:
(https://i.imgur.com/pLFlX3v.png)
Here's a link for the USCG, page 34.
http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/1/AssetManager/ABYC.1002.01.pdf
Here's another link outlining the ID of a boats fuel tank vents:
https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/boat-examination/non-private-boats/part-2-inboard-engines/vent-pipes/
AJFishin, that's it! Good find! That article says 9/16, with a MINIMUM 7/16 ID vent hole. Mine is 1/4, which is 4/16, half the size of what's called for according to that write up. I suspected that vent hole was too small
That would also explain why fuel was squirting (as if under pressure) from the tank vent with the hose removed. I can see splashing , but it was squirting. Vent too small, to much pressure build up
Fisher: CAUTION: HEED CROAKER'S WARNING! DO NOT drill that tank with an electrically powered device! Find a hand ream, or something similar. You won't be able to get on-line service to this site when you're sitting on the Moon. :hoboy:
Yat
Yes Yat, the 4th of July is over and I will NOT use a power drill, or a vacuum. So how do I tap that hole without getting large twists of plastic in the tank that could block a fuel line?
I'll have to work on that, but I think a drill bit (being turned by hand) should be able to cut through that plastic. You'd have to get creative with finding a way to attach something to the bit that would give you enough leverage in order to twist it. Problem is, there's not a lot of room in there. Course, that doesn't solve the problem relating to the plastic debris. Guess I'll have to look around the garage. :jester:
Yat
I can get a hand drill that has a handle to turn for leverage or a T handle style ream. I'm thinking maybe put grease or thick oil on the drill bit to catch the plastic shavings what do you think
If it is indeed a bad design the manufacturer should replace your tank. I would get a hold of the manufacturer and open the discussion with them. Looks like the vent is too small, as previously mentioned if you open it up do not make the nipple too thin.....again, I would get a hold of the manufacturer.
Quote from: Fisherdv on November 28, 2017, 07:31:42 AM
I can get a hand drill that has a handle to turn for leverage or a T handle style ream. I'm thinking maybe put grease or thick oil on the drill bit to catch the plastic shavings what do you think
Yep, use a T-handle similar to those used for taps.
When turning by hand, you're not likely to get the small particles generated by a high speed drill. The plastic is relatively soft as well so it will cut easily and create the typical long spiral pieces. I like the idea of using grease on the drill bit to get everything possible to stick to it.
The fuel fill hose might be a little close for anything too long. Perhaps you could attach a ratcheting driver handle?
Yat
Quote from: Rokefin on November 28, 2017, 08:18:17 AM
If it is indeed a bad design the manufacturer should replace your tank. I would get a hold of the manufacturer and open the discussion with them. Looks like the vent is too small, as previously mentioned if you open it up do not make the nipple too thin.....again, I would get a hold of the manufacturer.
I think that would be my best option before I do any modifications to the tank.
Quote from: Rokefin on November 28, 2017, 08:18:17 AM
If it is indeed a bad design the manufacturer should replace your tank. I would get a hold of the manufacturer and open the discussion with them. Looks like the vent is too small, as previously mentioned if you open it up do not make the nipple too thin.....again, I would get a hold of the manufacturer.
+1
I'm sure Don will get you squared away.....but another thought I had was possibly a tee off your vent nipple and running 2 vent lines - possibly may give enough venting to allow normal fill operations.
Quote from: Rokefin on November 28, 2017, 10:52:25 AM
I'm sure Don will get you squared away.....but another thought I had was possibly a tee off your vent nipple and running 2 vent lines - possibly may give enough venting to allow normal fill operations.
It's the vent nipple itself that's too small
Yes, I did realize the vent was too small, my thought was an extra line might allow it to breathe enough but I guess being restricted at the vent nipple itself not much will help.
I am curious looking at the engineering part of this why/how did they come up with such a small diameter nipple :shrug9:
Fisher:
Just for the hell-of-it, I took a 3/8" drill bit and slipped-it into a 3/8" deep socket and ratchet. Taped-it together real tight with duct tape and............... Enough said? :whistle: I'm so damned smart. :biggrin: What?......You don't believe me? Just ask Croaker, Mark, Threeweight or StreamFixer.................(Okay, you might not want to bother Fixer). :facepalm:
Yat :jester:
Quote from: Yachter Yat on November 28, 2017, 01:15:16 PM
Fisher:
Just for the hell-of-it, I took a 3/8" drill bit and slipped-it into a 3/8" deep socket and ratchet. Taped-it together real tight with duct tape and............... Enough said? :whistle: I'm so damned smart. :biggrin: What?......You don't believe me? Just ask Croaker, Mark, Threeweight or StreamFixer.................(Okay, you might not want to bother Fixer). :facepalm:
Yat :jester:
Yat
Did the "tool" have enough strength taped together to be able to cut? Yat, I don't have to ask anyone about your geniusness, between yourself and 3WT you could write an "all things boating" encyclopedia! :jester:
Before you start modifying the size of the vent hole in you tank, try filling the tank with the fuel line from the tank removed at the at the filter. This should double your venting capacity.
If this works then you will know if inadequate venting is really the problem.
Jim
Quote from: Yachter Yat on November 28, 2017, 01:15:16 PM
Fisher:
Just for the hell-of-it, I took a 3/8" drill bit and slipped-it into a 3/8" deep socket and ratchet. Taped-it together real tight with duct tape and............... Enough said? :whistle: I'm so damned smart. :biggrin: What?......You don't believe me? Just ask Croaker, Mark, Threeweight or StreamFixer.................(Okay, you might not want to bother Fixer). :facepalm:
Yat :jester:
Yat, it doesn't take a Rocket Surgeon to figure that out. :jester:
I assume that there is a filter on the end of the pickup and you would remove tube and filter before you tried my idea.
Jim
Sorry Jim, I deleted my comment. After I wrote it, it just sounded bad.
No Problem CS, I should have been more explicit in my idea.
I have owned two Arima's and never had the need to remove the main plastic tank, I have pulled many metal tanks and they have all has filters and line that were removable, leaving the vent above the fuel level when removed.
I just hate to make mortifications that are not reversible when trouble shooting a problem.
Jim
My modifications sometimes lead to mortification. I never talk about those. :bigshock:
Can anyone confirm if the 27 gallon plastic tanks have a filter or screen on the fuel pickup tubing in the tank?
Had a look at the vent on my 2013 tank today. Took the hose off the vent, vent is 3/8" inside diameter. I can easily blow through the hose and feel the air exiting the vent fitting in the splash well.
Quote from: blindmonkey on November 28, 2017, 08:05:46 PM
Had a look at the vent on my 2013 tank today. Took the hose off the vent, vent is 3/8" inside diameter. I can easily blow through the hose and feel the air exiting the vent fitting in the splash well.
Im pretty sure that's my problem. Mine is only 1/4 inch ID. Your the third member that has measured 3/8 on theirs. By the way, do you have any problems filling up?
No issues filling tank. It doesn't take it really fast but I can easily fill it in less than 5 minutes.
I was able to hand drill out that vent hole to 3/8 ID. I used a sharp drill bit and a vice grip to turn it. Took a while, but it worked. I put some thick grease on the drill bit and it did a very good job at keeping all the plastic shavings on the bit and out of the tank. Won't know till I fill up again.
Glad to see you managed to get that opened. I'd be willing to bet you'll see quite a difference in venting. If I get ambitious, I'll pull my vent hose and check the hole size. I don't seem to remember it being as small as 1/4". About the pickup screen: Stupid me.........I never paid any attention to that pickup tube when I had the tank out. :doh:
Yat
Excellent glad you were able to fix it. I agree with Yat that you will see a difference in venting.
My boat has the opposite problem as you .
When my tank is full gas starts shooting out the vent into the splash well before it clicks off .
Oh well I just learn to live with it.
Quote from: Tj805 on November 30, 2017, 09:24:51 PM
My boat has the opposite problem as you .
When my tank is full gas starts shooting out the vent into the splash well before it clicks off .
Oh well I just learn to live with it.
Do you have an open style vent or p-trap type?
I tried filling gas today with the vent hole enlarged to 3/8, not much help. I can only pump gas at maybe 1/4 flow of the pump. Gas spills out the filler and the p-trap vent now. I know we pretty much covered almost everything in this 7 page thread but if you guys can think of anything else I could try I'm all ears. I know the USCG specs say 7/16 minimum vent hole diameter and I'm now at 3/8, or 6/16. I wonder if another 1/16 would really make a difference? Appreciate any other advice. I'm really not liking cleaning up all the gas that spills in my splash well. Hopefully gas will not eat my gel coat. :shrug9:
Sorry I don't understand why that is happening. The only problem I've had is when I push the nozzle too far into the filler neck. I have the same setup as you, as you know.
John
As John said the nozzle needs to have room areound it for airflow. Also I know you shortened your vent hose to make it more vertical, is it now installed without any low spots to inhibit air flow? My vent pipe hole is definitely no bigger than 3/8" so I don't see any larger making a difference.
Quote from: Fisherdv on November 28, 2017, 04:25:20 PM
Can anyone confirm if the 27 gallon plastic tanks have a filter or screen on the fuel pickup tubing in the tank?
I know mine has a screen filter on the end of the pick up line that lays on the bottom of the tank. I think they all do.
Quote from: Tj805 on November 30, 2017, 09:24:51 PM
My boat has the opposite problem as you .
When my tank is full gas starts shooting out the vent into the splash well before it clicks off .
Oh well I just learn to live with it.
I had this happen the first time I filled my boat, now I take the take the back panel off and watch the fuel level and stop just before the fuel filler neck.
I've tried pulling back the boot on the pump nozzle and holding it up with air space and no help. The vent hose has no low spots. Maybe the thickness of the filler neck on the tank is catching the gas and restricting the flow? But then why would it come out the vent too? I had 10 gallons in the tank and added 5 more gallons so 15 gallons. The tank is far from full.
John, are you able to pump at full flow, or close to it?
Quote from: Fisherdv on November 30, 2017, 09:58:30 PM
Quote from: Tj805 on November 30, 2017, 09:24:51 PM
My boat has the opposite problem as you .
When my tank is full gas starts shooting out the vent into the splash well before it clicks off .
Oh well I just learn to live with it.
Do you have an open style vent or p-trap type?
I have the open style vent .
Works like a champ.
Maybe I should try an open style vent or try filling with that p-trap vent removed so it's just an open hose. Weird that I can blow freely through that vent hose with the p-trap on. At this point though I'm willing to try anything
Well, Fisher.......I believe you might have stumped all of us with this one. I don't get it. Answer this: Since enlarging the vent hole, are you able to pump ANY faster? Keeping in mind that most of us are not able to pump at anywhere near full throttle, I'm curious as to exactly how fast you can fill before you have this blowback occur. I thought for sure you would have noticed at least some improvement after widening that tank vent. Goes to show what I know. :jester:
Yat
Widening the vent hole seems to have helped a little, but not much. Kinda hard to really tell. As far as pump speed; I start real slow, then try to slowly increase flow, and before I know it, the eruption of gas out the filler and the p-trap vent too. I would say I'm not even getting to half flow from the nozzle. 3WT had mentioned the angle the boat sits on the trailer and it does sit nose down a bit. I just can't figure it out. Like I mentioned a few posts ago I'm gonna try removing the p-trap vent from the top of the vent hose and see what happens. Maybe it's restrictive just a bit too much. Although doing that I think I'm going to get gas squirting out that open hose? I guess I could just pump at a snails pace and wear my hand out for a good 10 minutes or so and deal with it
Fisher; You did mention something else relating to the neck on the tank. If I'm not mistaken, I believe you were thinking the fuel hitting the square edge at the top of the tank neck could be contributing to this problem..........essentially, causing the fuel to "splash back". If this is, indeed, what is happening, then we have to ask: Could the fuel be effectively closing-off any potential venting from the filler hose, thereby, forcing the tank to rely solely on the small 3/8" vent to do the job? Now I'm wondering if "carving" a bit of an angle on the plastic filler neck wouldn't help alleviate the situation. I'm picturing something like a 45 degree cut around the inner diameter at the top of the neck. Perhaps this could be done with a utility knife? Also seems like you might be able to stuff a rag down the neck a bit to catch any debris. Just a thought.
Yat
Yat, you and I think alike, I thought about doing that exact same thing, utility knife, rag and shaving that thick square edge lip. My filler neck much resembles my vent hole, very thick walled as if they didn't cut them out properly
Quote from: blindmonkey on December 10, 2017, 09:54:05 AM
In one of the pictures posted you have the vent hose going behind the filler hose. Mine is in front of the filler hose. Maybe a change in routing might make a difference.
Heres a pic of another members factory hose routing, mine is the same way(http://www.arimaowners.com/gallery/10/9220-101217100109-105082048.png)(http://www.arimaowners.com/gallery/10/9220-101217104354-105112260.jpeg)
Here's another factory install, i installed my vent in the same location (http://www.arimaowners.com/gallery/10/9220-101217100107-105071676.png)(http://www.arimaowners.com/gallery/10/9220-101217104354-105132472.jpeg)
I cannot run it straight up because I have a Scottys flush mount rod holder base there
Here's a pic of mine, also notice where the rod holder base is(http://www.arimaowners.com/gallery/10/9220-101217101843-10509564.png)
Another factory install for reference (http://www.arimaowners.com/gallery/10/9220-101217102235-105101412.png)(http://www.arimaowners.com/gallery/10/9220-101217104353-105111285.jpeg)
Sorry to see you're still having issues.
I wonder if the P-trap you currently have might be defective in some way :shrug9:
Quote from: blindmonkey on December 10, 2017, 09:54:05 AM
In one of the pictures posted you have the vent hose going behind the filler hose. Mine is in front of the filler hose. Maybe a change in routing might make a difference.
Blindmonkey, I may try taking the vent trap off, and run the hose straight up, with an overhand Loop into a small container with a helper. I should probably have the helper wear a fire proof suit though :doh: :hoboy:
Quote from: AJFishin on December 10, 2017, 10:53:01 AM
Sorry to see you're still having issues.
I wonder if the P-trap you currently have might be defective in some way :shrug9:
Trying filling with the p-trap off would see if the p-traps the problem
Just for general information: The vent hose on my 16 SC runs "behind" the filler hose as well.
Yat
Quote from: Yachter Yat on December 10, 2017, 11:28:36 AM
Just for general information: The vent hose on my 16 SC runs "behind" the filler hose as well.
Yat
X2
If you have fuel coming out of the P-trap, then the problem is not with the filler neck. Which side of the fill tube the vent hose runs on is irrelevant. I'd stop trying to modify the tank before you ruin it. The tank is not the problem.
If your boat sits significantly bow-down when you are filling it at the gas station, and you have foaming fuel coming back up out of the filler hose and vent, there's your problem. Both are located at the front of the tank... if the angle is steep, you have foaming fuel coming up out of the fill and vent fittings on the tank with an air pocket trapped on the back side.
On level ground, does you trailer sit level, or does it ride tongue down? Your problem may be as simple as using a ball mount that provides a better angle.
3WT, most of the spill over comes from the filler. Only when I tried pumping fast did it come out both the p-trap vent and the filler. If I pump slower and add a little more flow it builds up and comes out the filler only. As far as how the boat sits on the trailer, it is a little bow low on the trailer
(http://www.arimaowners.com/gallery/10/9220-101217114532-10514556.png)
Another pic on trailer (http://www.arimaowners.com/gallery/10/9220-071217211822.jpeg)
I don't know Threeweight. That boat appears to sit on an angle similar to mine, and I don't have this problem we're talking about. Not sure if that's what's causing this. I suppose one way to tell would be to disconnect and jack it up before filling. BTW, I think cutting a slight angle on the top of that filler neck wouldn't really do any harm. You would just be shaving the top.......there's plenty of "meat" down on that neck. My 2 more.
Yat
Quote from: Yachter Yat on December 10, 2017, 12:09:42 PM
I suppose one way to tell would be to disconnect and jack it up before filling.
Yat
Yat, like I said it's funny we think alike, I thought about doing that too
Well, hitched to your Blazer that angle your trailer looks level, but the boat is angled slightly down on the trailer (nice rig, btw!). I don't know that it is enough to create your problem, unless the gas station you are using is also sloped in such a way as to compound the problem.
A gas pump nozzle is 3/4"... the filler neck is 1 1/2" on the outside. It would have to be smaller than 3/4" on the inside to create your problem, if the tank were venting properly. If fuel is coming out through both the filler and the vent, that would point to a different problem. How would fuel backing up in the filler hose because of a restriction in the filler neck end up coming out the vent line?
IMO, something is creating back pressure that is forcing fuel out of both openings. That would mean the tank either isn't venting properly, or that as fuel is foaming it is trapping air and it is gurgling out through your fill and vent.
3WT, you may be right. It wouldn't hurt to try raising the bow some at next fill up. If it works, I could flip my trailer hitch up
You know what?........ If for nothing else, that would certainly be the way to scratch-off one more possible "Gremlin-like" reason for what you're experiencing. BTW, I didn't mean to be critical of Threeweight's theory. Needless to say, he's had plenty of experience with Arima. Truth is, he might have hit the proverbial nail on the head and we're just to stupid to realize it. What this is obviously boiling down to is a process of elimination. Also, I think you have to keep in mind that, in the final analysis, you may have to simply accept the fact that this particular fuel tank, on this particular boat, possesses this particular idiosyncrasy. (Did I just say that?) :jester: One thing's for sure: It's been an education. Hey.......now that I think of it.........do you suppose if I ever apply for a high-tech, high-paying job, I could include these experiences on this Forum on my resume? :smile1: :jester:
Yat
Like you said, I'm going to try those couple of things mentioned earlier. If that doesn't solve the problem I guess I'll just have to deal with it. Thank you guys for all your help and support on this issue. Believe me, I would really like to put an end to this topic :yeahthat:, If anything I think there's lots of good info here for others that may have come across this same problem. I'll give an update when I try those few more things. Again, thank you guys! :beerchug:
Sorry for not replying sooner. Yes I can pump with the nozzle pretty much wide open as long as I don't shove it all the way down the neck. My boat sits on the trailer at the same angle as yours. I can't believe that angle would make that much of a difference.....
John
Thx John
Sorry, I have no ideas about your fueling issue, but do want to say that I really like your Blazer!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Peddler on December 10, 2017, 07:13:44 PM
Sorry, I have no ideas about your fueling issue, but do want to say that I really like your Blazer!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Thx, Peddler. It's actually a GMC Jimmy, but the exact same thing as a Blazer
I'm thinking of trying a more open style vent just to verify if my p-trap is to restrictive among trying to raise the nose of the trailer a bit while filling as 3WT suggests. Thinking of ordering this Perko hood style vent. Has anyone tried or have this style vent? I'm assuming it would vent more openly than the p-trap vent. Being metal, does it have to be bonded or grounded?
I received that Perko, open hood style vent as pictured in the last post. I don't see anything on it to attach a ground wire to it. I've read that any metal components of the fuel tank must be grounded. What do you guys think? I guess I could wrap a wire around it then sandwich the nut on it. :shrug9:
If it's brass, it may not need to be grounded (just like your brass fuel fittings). The photo you posted looks like brass with a chromed hood on the outlet.
Ok, thanks 3WT. I gotta burn off about 15 gallons of gas before I fill again. I really hope this style vent breaths more than the p-trap.
Quote from: Fisherdv on December 19, 2017, 10:05:08 PM
Ok, thanks 3WT. I gotta burn off about 15 gallons of gas before I fill again. I really hope this style vent breaths more than the p-trap.
If you're curious and you're not heading out anytime soon, you could siphon some gas out of your boat and into your rig (or a couple 5 gallon tanks) if possible :shrug9:
Make sure it is installed with the elbow pointed up. That style does no have internal baffles, the elbow is what gives you protection from water intrusion.
Quote from: AJFishin on December 20, 2017, 09:34:54 AM
Quote from: Fisherdv on December 19, 2017, 10:05:08 PM
Ok, thanks 3WT. I gotta burn off about 15 gallons of gas before I fill again. I really hope this style vent breaths more than the p-trap.
If you're curious and you're not heading out anytime soon, you could siphon some gas out of your boat and into your rig (or a couple 5 gallon tanks) if possible :shrug9:
I could do that, I have spare tanks
Quote from: Threeweight on December 20, 2017, 09:46:40 AM
Make sure it is installed with the elbow pointed up. That style does no have internal baffles, the elbow is what gives you protection from water intrusion.
I may not have the room in there to mount in the fully up position but I should be able to angle it up a bit. I'm mostly curious to see if that solves my problems
Mount your hose to it with the fitting pointed down, but loosely in the hole. Then rotate and tighten the locking nut with it in the "up" position. Then re-attach vent hose to the fuel tank.
I used that same fitting on my old 17'... that's how I had to do it.
Downside is your current set up may not have enough hose.
If that vent solves my problems I will gladly buy a new hose if needed. I could try it angled down just to see if it works then get the longer hose if needed so I can angle it up
You can also angle it down if you form a loop in your hose going up.
Hope you try filling it up soon.....not sure we all could handle the suspense if we had to wait until after Christmas.
This sure has been a puzzling problem, I/we are hopeful the vent is the solution otherwise we will be scratching our heads for eternity :shrug9:
Quote from: Rokefin on December 20, 2017, 11:17:08 AM
Hope you try filling it up soon.....not sure we all could handle the suspense if we had to wait until after Christmas.
This sure has been a puzzling problem, I/we are hopeful the vent is the solution otherwise we will be scratching our heads for eternity :shrug9:
Unfortunately it may not be till after the New Year before I get to try it. :doh: Really hoping this topic has a happy ending before we get to page 10 :doh: :doh: :doh:
Sorry to bore you guys to death with this topic but I thought I would give an update. I tried fueling with the new style vent and also raised the trailer jack up as much as possible and guess what? Fuel still coming back out the filler cap :doh: I have just about exhausted all my options with exception of the filler neck on the tank. It is very thick and may not have been drilled out enough when manufactured as was my vent hole. If any of you guys have your filler hose off, or your 27 gal tank out for cleaning I would really like to know what your inside diameter of the filler neck is. As I mentioned before I think it's very likely that the fuel is getting stuck on the thick edge of the neck and restricting the flow going in.
I took a picture of mine way back on page 4, but here's a little more of a close up. Take a look at that picture and see if you can compare it with yours. I know that might be tough without measurements, but what the heck.
But if need be, I can try and wrestle my fuel hose off, I think I have some room left in the swear jar :jester:
(http://www.arimaowners.com/gallery/10/7859-080118210349.png)
Thanks AJ, here's mine, it definitely looks thicker :shrug9: What do you think? No need to measure. (http://www.arimaowners.com/gallery/10/9220-080118211801-10608655.png)
Yours looks clean cut, mine looks pretty rough cut
Another closer view, looks pretty thick and rough like it wasn't cut out properly :shrug9:(http://www.arimaowners.com/gallery/10/9220-080118212657-106171613.jpeg)
It isn't going to make any difference. If that inlet tube were causing a restriction, the fuel would be gushing back up out the fill cap, not out of the vent.
Almost every time I've filled gas only comes out the filler. Only came out the vent as well as the filler one time. The last time I filled with the new Perko vent, and trailer jack raised the fuel only came out the filler. The very first time I filled the tank, gas overflowed almost immediately out the filler only upon fueling even with an empty tank? I'm trying to cover all the possible causes. What else could it be? I've tried all other possible causes. Something is going on, I just can't pin point it yet
I came across this post from a while ago. He mentioned he has a thick cut filler neck and is having the same problems, see middle post (http://www.arimaowners.com/gallery/10/9220-080118223450-10618784.png)
I would cut around the top edge of that filler neck. I honestly don't believe cutting something like a 45 degree angle is going to do any harm as there's plenty of "meat" on that neck down below. Obviously, the challenge is going to be making sure the shavings don't fall into the tank.
Yat
Maybe grease on a razor blade would keep the shavings on the blade. It worked well with the drill bit. The one thing that makes me think this is the problem now is the fuel spilling out the filler even with an empty tank. The fuel must be hitting that thick lip and backing up
Yeah, you may be right. Guess there's only one way to find out for sure. Keep in mind, I don't think you'd ever be able to "full throttle" a fuel nozzle in these tanks. I know I could never do it. That said, cutting that neck may at least speed the fueling-up process to a point where it's tolerable.
Yat
Yes, I'm not looking for full throttle, as you said tolerable
FDV that is a very thick filler neck and hopefully that could be the problem, I mentioned on page 4 that it might be a good idea to chamfer the ID of that filler opening....nothing to lose at this point. Next step would be to put a mast and sheet on top and turn her into a sail boat :facepalm:
Were all very hopeful for a solution as this headache has grown into a big nightmare.
Good idea Yat... :clap: :bowdown:.... Chamfer the neck.
Stuff something like a rag or hunk of foam in the hole tied to a length of Spectra leash.
It sounds like you're leaning towards widening the ID. I'll have some time tonight and I'll try and pull the hose off and get a measurement.
I wonder if they increased the thickness of the new tanks to make them less permeable?
Croaker, that's a damned good question. Judging by the pictures AJ and Fisher posted, you'd swear that might be the case. Sounds like this could qualify as a "Dear Arima" inquiry. Also, seems to me, anybody replacing a fuel tank might want to know this.
Yat
Quote from: AJFishin on January 09, 2018, 09:37:30 AM
It sounds like you're leaning towards widening the ID. I'll have some time tonight and I'll try and pull the hose off and get a measurement.
AJ, it's ok, no need to measure. It's kind of a pain to take that hose off. I think the pics clearly show that mine is smaller. I'm not going to try to widen the whole neck, just maybe try to take some of the square edge off
Quote from: Croaker Stroker on January 09, 2018, 09:39:14 AM
I wonder if they increased the thickness of the new tanks to make them less permeable?
The main body of the tank is not very thick, only the vent and filler. There are regulations regarding the minimum hole diameter (7/16) for the vent and I don't remember what it is for the filler. I think these tank manufacturers are lacking a bit of quality control here. I mean, it's a gas tank, you should be able to put gas IN it :hoboy:
I'm going to try putting a smaller diameter hose inside the 1 1/2 in ID filler hose as the fellow wrote in the post I copied on page 9, #223. I found a fuel hose that is 1 1/2 OD that should fit perfectly in the filler hose so that would eliminate any hang ups on the filler neck from the tank. Essentially making it a straight shot, the same diameter, the whole way into the tank. Hopefully that will at least test the theory of the filler neck thickness restricting the flow. One way or the other I'm going to get this figured out. (Hopefully)
Another option, if your hose option doesn't quite work to well, is to maybe use something similar to this: :shrug9:
(http://www.arimaowners.com/gallery/10/7859-100118190551.png)
Quote from: AJFishin on January 10, 2018, 07:15:07 PM
Another option, if your hose option doesn't quite work to well, is to maybe use something similar to this: :shrug9:
(http://www.arimaowners.com/gallery/10/7859-100118190551.png)
I was just looking at those today! Lol. Where did you see that one? I like that it's metal. I just may have to "force feed" this tank :jester:
My new truck came with this...
(http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/R84AAOSwZVlXisif/s-l300.jpg)
I can imagine the look on the Chevron attendants face when he sees me snap on my rubber gloves, and pull out that funnel. I could tell him I'm giving my boat a prostate exam 😷 He's probably got the EPA on speed dial! 🤪 :jester:
They're called Justrite funnels. You can get them on Amazon or WalMart $20
I put a little bit of a bevel on the inside top edge of the filler neck to take a bit of the square edge lip off. Was very easy to do with a sharp razor and a sock stuffed in the hole to prevent shavings dropping in. It was almost like cutting candle wax it shaved so easy. Guess what, no bueno! Gas still coming back out the filler and now the vent every time as well. How with a half empty tank and all that air space does the fuel rise up and come out the vent??? Is pressure building up? If so why.? Is vent hole still not large enough? I opened it up to 3/8 but regulations specs say 9/16 or 7/16 MINIMUM. In that case my vent is still a 1/16 to 1/8 in too small. I even unhitched from the truck and raised the trailer jack all the way up. Why is the gas not staying down? A simple 3-5 minute fill up is taking me 20-25 minutes by the time I fill the tank and clean up all the spilled gas mess. I mean, I cannot even pump gas with any kind of steady flow, it's stop and go or a trickle at a time :doh: :doh: :doh:
Wow! I'm stumped! Maybe it is the vent??? Gonna have to sleep on this one, Fisher.
Yat
Doesn't make sense. :shrug9: :doh:
3WT, you were right, beveling the filler didn't seem to help. I have to try all options at this point.
Okay, here's another "shot-in-the-dark": Do you suppose there could be some kind of "burr" in that tank? What I mean is, some piece of plastic inside the tank, (maybe a glitch from the molding process) sticking out inside the tank just enough to catch, and thereby, upset the fuel flow? If nothing else, I suppose looking down into the filler neck and checking could put this one to bed. Like I said.....a "shot-in-the-dark". :shrug9:
Yat
I looked down the filler neck, no burrs that I could see. I really can't understand why fuel is coming out the vent also. With a half tank of gas there is about 10 inches or so of air. So how does the fuel rise up through all that air space and find its way all the way up the and out the vent hose? Pressure build up??? Vent hole at the tank still not large enough? I don't see how if it was splashing it could get all the way up a curved, small diameter hose with enough force to come out the p-trap vent
Gas will foam and aerate when you pump it. My guess is you are pumping from a pretty high speed pump, with a decent drop from the nozzle to the fuel level in the tank. It's causing it to foam and aerate, and the aerated gas is foaming up and out the fill and vent.
Only solution is to slow down the pump.
I've tried a few different gas stations and same result. I know I'm not going to be able to fill full throttle but I can't even squeeze the nozzle at the lowest, constant flow level without the spill over. So basically I have to squeeze light as possible, stop completely, sqeeze as light as possible, stop and so on. There is no way I can fill with the nozzle flowing constantly even at the lowest flow setting
Have you tried putting gas in with a gas can and seeing what happens?
I'm curious if that flow would work better :shrug9:
I know my 5 gallon gas can with the fancy safely nozzle, pours gas in slower and takes a breather every 5 or 10 seconds as it's pouring in.
If that works, one of these might be in your future.
(https://i.imgur.com/PZciuEhm.png)
In line with what AJ says, maybe one of those 30 gal. "Gas Caddies" (don't know if that's spelled correctly) would work as well.
Yat
Edit: Hey, wait a minute. Maybe that's what AJ is showing?
Re-edit: No. That's a 14 gal. model. Walmart has (what they call) a 30 gal. GAScaddy with rotary pump on line for $179.95 w/free shipping. Course, you'd have to get it on and off your truck when refilling. Maybe more trouble than it's worth.
Too many pages to re-read them all but what does the manufacturer have to say about this dilemma????????
Very odd that there are others with the same tank and they don't have the issues you are having - your tank seems un-fillable beyond a trickle.
IDK, maybe you are correct, vent too small :shrug9:
Your correct, there are a few that don't have any problems, but if you do a search about it there are lots of people that have this problem as well going way back for many years. I quoted a post all the way from 2010. With so many known issues I would think the actual manufacturer of the tank would have redesigned this tank by now. I could maybe give Inca (the tank manufacturer) a call and see what they have to say. I believe another company has taken over Inca now. I guess it is what it is and I'll just have to deal with it or try to find a different tank that would fit. Believe me, I never intended on this thread being so long and thank you all for your help and patience.
Fisher, this problem is not right and should be corrected not lived with IMHO. 26 pages with fellow owners with no solution, it is definitely time to call the manufacturer or the vendor. I would want to speak with an engineer or perhaps get it replaced, but would not want to see you just live with it. Way too big an investment for that. I have the same tank on my 17' SC and have nothing close to these issues.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Also, Call Defiance and talk to Don. He's an amazingly willing resource.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
At this point I would be on the phone with the manufacturer and see what they have to say before it's to late to do anything.
That manufacturer makes a lot of different tanks in a lot of different sizes. I can not imagine the other smaller, larger or similar size tanks have this issue as bad as you do.
I thought for sure widening the vent hole diameter would have solved the issue, but it seems there's something else going on, maybe something hidden inside the tank that can't be seem. :shrug9:
California has all of the crazy EPA standards and maybe a lot has changed with the tanks design from my year tank, 1996, to today.
You have tried every possible solution with your tank from all of the advice given here and it seems that your tank is now producing another problem.
I would hate to see you go from a SNAFU to a FUBAR.
I'm curious what you guys think the engineering problem is?
The tank is venting and filling. It has the old style vent system, no pressure valve or charcoal canister. It's set up just like the tanks Arima has been using since the early 1980's. Because it creates no back pressure it has no way to trip the gas pump off or slow it down. The only time I ever experienced anything like this with my old boat was when I got to nearly a full tank and didn't slow the pump. Fuel foams and aerates, bubbly fuel gets into the vent/fill line, then it gets forced up and out as more fuel gets pumped in and the displaced air in the tank has to go somewhere.
I'd call Don, but I'm guessing he's going to tell you to take the back panel off when you fill and watch the tank level. When it gets up near the top 1/3, either slow down the pump or give it a break every 10-15 seconds and let the foaming settle. Another option might be one of the "whistles" to go on the vent line and tell you how much air volume you have left in the tank.
When I filled the tank for the first time (tank completely empty) gas blew back almost immediately. It really doesn't matter how full my tank is, it's always the same result :shrug9:
The only difference in my boat is my filler is outboard, on the sponson. My gas fill hose is longer, shaped like an "S", and not a direct shot into the tank. Fisher's fill hose is very short and the gas shoots straight down to the bottom of the tank.
Did they change the fill location ?
Mine was a straight shot as well, 1989 hull.
(http://www.arimaowners.com/gallery/10/4-150118113858.jpeg)
Some folks have said this worked for this problem. No personal experience with it
https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?path=-1%7C311%7C2349059%7C2349060&id=133911
I'll throw out another idea...
In this photo, your vent hose appears to have a horizontal run. (Particularly if the bow of the boat is up) Maybe the fuel is puddling there. :shrug9:
Try re-routing or shortening the hose to give it a more vertical run.
(http://www.arimaowners.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=14544.0;attach=22152)
Quote from: Croaker Stroker on January 15, 2018, 11:54:24 AM
I'll throw out another idea...
In this photo, your vent hose appears to have a horizontal run. (Particularly if the bow of the boat is up) Maybe the fuel is puddling there. :shrug9:
Try re-routing or shortening the hose to give it a more vertical run.
(http://www.arimaowners.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=14544.0;attach=22152)
Most all of the photos I've seen are the same way, filler cap in same location. Maybe I could try filling straight into the tank neck, bypassing the hose all together :shrug9:
Quote from: blindmonkey on January 15, 2018, 11:43:41 AM
Some folks have said this worked for this problem. No personal experience with it
https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?path=-1%7C311%7C2349059%7C2349060&id=133911
That may solve the fuel out the vent line, but probably won't help with the fuel coming out the filler cap. That would be a $144 gamble
Maybe the inside neck was cut so rough and not smooth that it's causing turbulence and making the gas aerate and foam?
(http://www.arimaowners.com/gallery/10/9220-080118212657-106171613.jpeg)
The price was $91 on that site. I have also read folks wrap a rag around the filler nozzle to make an airtight seal so all air is expelled through vent.
Your right, I was looking at the list price :doh:
Quote from: Threeweight on January 15, 2018, 11:24:32 AM
I'm curious what you guys think the engineering problem is?
One associated with this application (fuel hydraulics) has not been consulted?
Call the manufacturer!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: blindmonkey on January 15, 2018, 12:27:00 PM
The price was $91 on that site. I have also read folks wrap a rag around the filler nozzle to make an airtight seal so all air is expelled through vent.
Air tight seal will solve the filler problem, I thought you were right on target, but the way this issue has gone I'm sure fuel will gush out of the vent....
After really thinking about what 3WT said about the splashing and foaming fuel he may be absolutely right. The filler and vent are very close together at the tank. My boat sits nose down quite a bit on the trailer. So when the fuel is coming down the filler neck and the boat leaning forward, the fuel could be "walking", or splashing up the front wall of the tank just enough to block off the vent with fuel essentially blocking all venting. Once even a small amount of fuel gets in that vent hose venting stops and the air/back pressure created pushes behind the fuel in the vent and pushes it out the vent. There is also probably no or very little venting taking place through the filler neck because the flowing gas in is blocking off any air or venting. I've seen pics of Johns boat (16 SC), and his bow is a lot higher up on the trailer than mine and he has no filling problems. I'm I making any sense?
Are you making any sense? I think so, but here's the question: Why is it that my boat is like yours and my tank is as well, yet I don't have this problem?
Yat
Yat, is your nose as low as this? I've tried with trailer jack all the way up also? Maybe it's still not enough. When I wash down my deck hooked to truck all the water on the deck flows to the cuddy
(http://www.arimaowners.com/gallery/10/9220-150118144617-106291633.jpeg)
Here's the angle on mine.
J.
My bow is "in" the trailer, looks like yours is above the trailer. Thx John. I remember seeing a pic of your boat in your driveway in a post and it looked much higher than mine
I could see a problem with splashing or foaming with a near full tank but not with an empty or half full tank.
Definitely a stumper for the ages....
Quote from: Rokefin on January 15, 2018, 03:08:41 PM
I could see a problem with splashing or foaming with a near full tank but not with an empty or half full tank.
Definitely a stumper for the ages....
Maybe with boat leaning forward and empty or near empty tank the fuel is still walking up the front tank wall and making its way to the vent? I mean there's really no other explanation?
I also purposely wanted the boat a bit bow down on the trailer so I could make sure it fit under my garage door. Now that I know it will with about 8in of clearance I may look into raising the bow up on the trailer. I'll start a new thread on that if needed
I was reading some other forums and came across a few more fixes / suggestions that have helped others with the same fueling problem as yours. I don't know if they will work for you or not, but figured I'd post the ideas. :shrug9:
*Flipping the fuel nozzle upside down.
*Putting the nozzle in at the 3 o'clock position when filling.
*Taking the vent hose off of the vent (P-Trap) and then hold the vent hose as straight as possible when filling up. (probably a 2 person job)
*Get a larger diameter vent hose.
*Start off with a slow fill and then increase the speed after the first couple of gallons.
If you give gas station a heads up you might be a few minutes fueling maybe you can detach trailer and use trailer jack to experiment with this theory. My boat sits level on trailer never had an issue fueling on trailer or at a marina.
Quote from: blindmonkey on January 15, 2018, 05:11:43 PM
If you give gas station a heads up you might be a few minutes fueling maybe you can detach trailer and use trailer jack to experiment with this theory. My boat sits level on trailer never had an issue fueling on trailer or at a marina.
I tried that, twice. Thinking with the bow so low it still may not be enough :shrug9:
Quote from: AJFishin on January 15, 2018, 05:09:00 PM
I was reading some other forums and came across a few more fixes / suggestions that have helped others with the same fueling problem as yours. I don't know if they will work for you or not, but figured I'd post the ideas. :shrug9:
*Flipping the fuel nozzle upside down.
*Putting the nozzle in at the 3 o'clock position when filling.
*Taking the vent hose off of the vent (P-Trap) and then hold the vent hose as straight as possible when filling up. (probably a 2 person job)
*Get a larger diameter vent hose.
*Start off with a slow fill and then increase the speed after the first couple of gallons.
Thx AJ, I tried the nozzle all different ways, I also tried disconnecting the vent hose and gas just squirt out the vent hole. Tried starting slow and increasing no help. Next, out of desperation, I may try loosening the fuel gauge sending unit and I bet it will vent then. Shouldn't splash cause it's so far away from the filler. I even thought about filling from the sending unit hole and use the regular filler as a vent with cap open. I don't even use the sender. Maybe even turning the sender hole into a vent with a cap, and open the cap to vent while filling
That might work, it doesn't hurt to try.
Fisherdv you have a PM
Fisher; Just checked how my boats sits. I've got an EZ Loader roller trailer. Looks like the bottom of the hull (near the bow) sits about 3 to 4 inches below the top of the frame rail. I tow with my 2015 Tacoma access cab truck, so (when hitched) might not be as high some larger vehicles . I don't have a picture of my boat attached to the truck, but going by memory, it may sit slightly bow-down when hitched. I'll try to check that when the weather gets better.
Just wanted to say: I used to always fill-up at stations, but in recent years, I found it easier to fill from cans I keep in the garage. What I do is fill those "No Spill" cans (at my convenience) when I fuel my truck. I fill the truck first.......(with Hi Test, of course), then fill the cans. I've found this to be a lot less "hectic" than pulling in to the local station with the boat in tow. The station we frequent is a pretty busy place so there never seems to be enough room, or I always feel I'm in someone's way. Remember; I like to fill the truck first, then the boat. You can imagine how having to reposition your rig to do this can become a Royal PITA, right? I had to put that to bed! That said, I still never had problems fueling from a nozzle at a slow, yet reasonable, rate.
Yat
Fdv, if you aren't using the sender you could fabricate a larger vent tube in the sender cap -possibly run 2 vents? Talk to the manufacturer first but a larger vent may help your problem.
I also use gas cans most the time as the boat is stored at the coast, it is easy and surprisingly not messy.
Have you tried gas containers?
Ya, turning the sender hole into a vent could be done somehow but that would be my last resort. Actually I'm already about at my last resort. With that sender hole being away from the filler neck to avoid splashing into the vent it would probably work well. I do have portable cans and I could do that I guess, but I usually just like to fill the truck and the boat at the pump at the same time and know I have fresh gas
It probably wouldn't hurt to try that Racor LG100 fuel/air separater that AJ, and Blindmonkey mention but it measures 9 7/8 L X 4" diameter. I doubt it would fit in there on my vent line. They also have a LG50 that's smaller, but from what I've read the larger LG100 works much better. That may solve the vent overflow but not sure it would help for the filler spilling over :shrug9:
This a good article about them and vented filler caps if anyone is interested.http://www.boatus.org/findings/40/
Fisherdv, have you tried anything else on your fueling issue? Holy water? Exorcism?
What is the latest? Like yourself, I need resolve on this issue...
I've been sturgeon fishing on anchor lately so I don't use very much fuel. I still have a little over 20 gallons left in the tank. Once I get down to about 10 gallons or so then I'll try it again. I've got a few more tricks up my sleeve I wanna try :doh: Thanks for asking
Fisher.....
Granted I haven't read all pages in this thread but from the last 3 I gather your issue is with filling the tank you have fuel almost immediately backing up and splashing out of the filler neck, and subsequently also coming out of the vent tube?
Solent me ask this...
Is your vent outlet the older (I'll call it original) style Black plastic in the splashwell?
If it is....a possible solution is that it is partially closed. NOT PLUGGED BUT CLOSED.
The cap (vent) should turn freely left and right.
When I 1st installed the tank on FahrFrumWerken (I miss hat boat...) I had a similar problem. Pressure from fueling would quickly shut down the nozzle even when empty.
At first I figured it was just normal figured I'd have to live with it. But then by accident I started turning the black vent cap. Suddenly my problem went away.
By coincidence so did my fuel bulb partially collapsing at FULL throttle!
My take is that evidently those original vent caps have an internal valve that can regulate the amount of venting. Try turning that vent cap and see if that solves your issue.
If I'm out of line on this then just do like my wife does and gnome me... :wink:
Thanks SK. I can blow freely through that black plastic vent and I even tried a completely open, Perko hood style vent. With the open Perko vent, the fuel comes back at me through the filler. I've since put the black plastic p-vent back on because it looks like it will protect against water getting in better. I'll try as you suggest again and see if that helps, but I'm sure I'm still going to get fuel out the filler :doh:
I was reading one of my boating magazine and came across this little device. $40
https://youtu.be/Oc80T0umpag
It might work for your gas tanks drinking problem.
(https://i.imgur.com/1ZQkJ8ml.jpg)
Thanks, I will definitely give that a look. I need to get gas tomorrow morning before I go out so I will be leaving 45 min earlier to account for that :doh: :doh: :doh:
I've come to the conclusion that the problem is that the filler hole and the vent hole in the tank are too close together. When fuel is coming down the fill it finds it's way to the vent hole. Once the fuel gets even a little bit up the vent hose it blocks off all venting completely.
I also think the crappy California gas has lots to do with the problem as well. The gas is so heavily airated that it's very "light" going down the fill creating a vacuum loop not staying down and pushing the light weight, airated fuel right up the vent blocking it off. Anyway that's my theory :twocents:
Good find, AJ.
Yat
Thanks Yat.
This product seems like it might work for your situation. It's an interesting design as it has multiple stair steps, I'm guessing, so it breaks up the backflow of gas which allows it to flow back in the tank.
I found this video of the creator letting a Sheriff use it to fill his boat. Not sure if the Sheriff's boat has same issue as you, but that little device work well at full throttle.
https://youtu.be/6MTlM6Zuu6I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHscS5JX7zA
I agree with the Racor/clear bowl/drain folks, won't go without one. If you're able to get gas from high-volume stations (like Costco), it's unlikely you'll ever have a problem, but if you refuel somewhere at a fuel dock, it's a crapshoot. I go way up into Canada once or twice a year, launching from Port McNeil or Port Hardy, and when you're "out there", bad fuel is a possibility you don't want to deal with. About 10 years ago, I started using a great filtered funnel. They are sold under the 'Mr.Funnel' or 'Hopkins' brands, and I think West Marine had the same thing in their own brand. It uses a proprietary filter and water trap, and removes nearly as much gunk and water as a cannister filter. It makes sense to remove everything you can BEFORE it goes in the tank. The only downsides are that it takes longer to fill up, since the filter restricts flow, and the bottom of the funnel has a small trap for water and particles, which you need to dump out. It's only an ounce or so, and I carry a small poly jar with a screw top to dump it into. These funnels have become popular with pilots - their bad fuel issues are generally more serious than ours.
AJ; I don't have a problem fueling my boat, but from what Fisher was posting, he seemed to be having an issue with this. Here's hoping he can benefit from your finding. Anything that can be used to help our fellow Arima owners is certainly appreciated.
Yat
Quote from: Yachter Yat on June 22, 2018, 01:50:00 PM
AJ; I don't have a problem fueling my boat, but from what Fisher was posting, he seemed to be having an issue with this. Here's hoping he can benefit from your finding. Anything that can be used to help our fellow Arima owners is certainly appreciated.
Yat
Yes I was hoping this will help out Señor Fisher with his tanks drinking problem. 12 pages and growing, a 45 minute fill (http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/object/gas-pump-smiley-emoticon-emoji.png) (http://www.sherv.net/) :doh:
Well maybe not quite 45 minutes. But the clean up does take a while :whistle: And it sucks having hands that smell like gas. The fish may not like the taste of fuel on their bait :shrug9:
Quote from: Yachter Yat on June 22, 2018, 01:50:00 PM
AJ; I don't have a problem fueling my boat, but from what Fisher was posting, he seemed to be having an issue with this. Here's hoping he can benefit from your finding. Anything that can be used to help our fellow Arima owners is certainly appreciated.
Yat
Yes, 13 pages and months later the AO members are still hard at work trying to find solutions :yeahthat: :beerchug:
Definitely everyone's working hard on a solution. :biggrin:
(https://i.imgur.com/vyfrlaxl.jpg)
:jester: That's pretty funny, AJ. Apparently, we're not giving up on Fisher's fueling problem. If that gadget doesn't work, I may think about heading down to M.I.T. in Boston to see if I can get the students to start working on it. :jester:
Yat
:jester: :yeahthat:, I just got through pumping gas, I got a bad hand cramp from holding the pump at a trickle :whistle: :hoboy:
My aching bananas............I just don't know why fueling your 16SC tank should be so different from fueling my 16SC tank. :shrug9: No doubt, this is one for "the books".
Yat