Barnaclebobs wiring upgrade thread

[fishmeister]

Since this is for 120 VAC Shore power, it might help to know what you are trying to accomplish with this.  Example(s):  Battery charger, general purpose 120 VAC receptacles, etc.

[positize]

Since that is a green LED, which you want to extinguish when protector has tripped, yes you would put the LED small black wire on the load side.  Like fishmeister observed, the ELCI Current Transformer (coil) needs all the load power to run through it (load neutral and hot) to properly sense the total current sums to zero.

Since you are adding AC to your vessel, are you planning to also add a galvanic isolator to ensure you don't have stray current corrosion? As soon as you add AC, you need an ELCI (to not shock swimmers) and a galvanic isolator (or isolation transformer, but that is awfully heavy for our little boats).  Because shore power ground and your vessel ground can be at different potentials, the GI stops the stray currents that would be generated due to that potential difference: stray current corrosion can really cook any metal contacting the water.

[DevMah]

Im wiring up the 120v panel and could use some confirmation that the small black LED indicator wire goes to the load side of the breaker.  If so, why the heck dont they put a 1/4" ring terminal on these...

That is the correct spot if you want to see it lit when powered up.(switched/load side of breaker)

What are you trying to accomplish.

Dev

[DevMah]

Since that is a green LED, which you want to extinguish when protector has tripped, yes you would put the LED small black wire on the load side.  Like fishmeister observed, the ELCI Current Transformer (coil) needs all the load power to run through it (load neutral and hot) to properly sense the total current sums to zero.

Since you are adding AC to your vessel, are you planning to also add a galvanic isolator to ensure you don't have stray current corrosion? As soon as you add AC, you need an ELCI (to not shock swimmers) and a galvanic isolator (or isolation transformer, but that is awfully heavy for our little boats).  Because shore power ground and your vessel ground can be at different potentials, the GI stops the stray currents that would be generated due to that potential difference: stray current corrosion can really cook any metal contacting the water.

Hum...
Galvanic isolators...
Depends if he is running a battery charger and if the boat has a battery switch.


Dev

[Barnaclebob]

Since that is a green LED, which you want to extinguish when protector has tripped, yes you would put the LED small black wire on the load side.  Like fishmeister observed, the ELCI Current Transformer (coil) needs all the load power to run through it (load neutral and hot) to properly sense the total current sums to zero.

Since you are adding AC to your vessel, are you planning to also add a galvanic isolator to ensure you don't have stray current corrosion? As soon as you add AC, you need an ELCI (to not shock swimmers) and a galvanic isolator (or isolation transformer, but that is awfully heavy for our little boats).  Because shore power ground and your vessel ground can be at different potentials, the GI stops the stray currents that would be generated due to that potential difference: stray current corrosion can really cook any metal contacting the water.

Hum...
Galvanic isolators...
Depends if he is running a battery charger and if the boat has a battery switch.


Dev

Im wiring up the 120v panel and could use some confirmation that the small black LED indicator wire goes to the load side of the breaker.  If so, why the heck dont they put a 1/4" ring terminal on these...

That is the correct spot if you want to see it lit when powered up.(switched/load side of breaker)

What are you trying to accomplish.

Dev

Thanks. 

I just wanted confirmation that i understood it correctly to get the led to light up.  I was kind of surprised the connector wouldnt fit onto the breaker so i thought i might be missing something.

 I understand how to wire the rest of the panel with the load neutral/hot going through the sensor.

This panel is for shore power to power a blue sea batterylink charger.  I was planning on a galvanic isolator and the batteries are switched with a perko off/1/both/2 switch.  Maybe its not needed?  Is the whole panel overkill?

[Barnaclebob]

If that's the inline indicator fuseholder, I think you are connecting in the wrong place.

The diagram also shows your Load Side 120 VAC requiring both the Line and Neutral to pass through the coil.  The pic only shows the Neutral doing so.

Have I missed something?

Thanks, the panel isnt wired up yet.  Thats how it comes from the factory.  Ill be sending the load hot wire through the sensor.

[positize]

Adding an ELCI is NOT overkill at all.  ABYC now requires an ELCI within 10 feet of that shore power connector.  Once you add shore power, you need that ELCI for life safety.  You are to be commended for learning about this and doing it properly.  An ELCI ensures that the shore power will be disconnected if there is any stray current leaking.  Stray current leaking into the water is a valid and demonstrated life safety issue for nearby swimmers who can be shocked just the right amount so their muscles no longer work properly, resulting in drowning: this typically happens to children.

When you've added shore power, the galvanic isolator (or isolation transformer) also is a very good practice to avoid corrosion due to differences in potential between shore protective earth (ground) potential and the potential of your vessel DC bonding of any metal that is in contact with the water.  The GI, together with proper bonding, assures your submerged metal won't see excessive stray current and galvanic corrosion.  I've been on many vessels where the AC and DC grounding has been done improperly and the damage to the vessels has been very expensive (including metal hulls so thin you could punch through it with your hand). 

Once you've added shore AC, you also need to be aware that your AC neutral bus, AC ground bus, DC ground bus and bonding bus should be properly referenced to each other to ensure electrical safety and minimize stray current corrosion.  By my experience, and by surveys conducted by marine surveyors that I work with, estimates are that 60-70% of vessels have errors in their grounding schemes.  It's an area of vessel wiring where even experienced marine technicians and engineers make mistakes.  I've had many long and technical discussions with fellow marine electrical engineers, naval architects and the marine electricians regarding my vessel electrical designs and this grounding area is one of the most misunderstood.

The beauty of the ELCI is that it will trip if there is a wiring mistake or current leakage safety issue: you are definitely doing the right thing here and I hope other folks considering adding shore power connectors follow your example.

[Barnaclebob]

Once you've added shore AC, you also need to be aware that your AC neutral bus, AC ground bus, DC ground bus and bonding bus should be properly referenced to each other to ensure electrical safety and minimize stray current corrosion.  By my experience, and by surveys conducted by marine surveyors that I work with, estimates are that 60-70% of vessels have errors in their grounding schemes.  It's an area of vessel wiring where even experienced marine technicians and engineers make mistakes.  I've had many long and technical discussions with fellow marine electrical engineers, naval architects and the marine electricians regarding my vessel electrical designs and this grounding area is one of the most misunderstood.

Thanks for the confirmation.  This is a really simple AC system that is only there to power a battery charger.  I suppose an additional circuit for an outlet in the cuddy could be added if I ever need to keep a small heater/dehumidifier running in there.  Currently only way the AC and DC neutral/ground would come together is if its inside the battery charger.  Are they supposed to be linked?

I'll try to post a wiring diagram by the end of the day, Im about 75% finished with it.

[Barnaclebob]

Ok Here's the wiring diagram. I haven't spent a lot of time proofreading so there may be some errors (like the anchor light not going to the switch panel).

My main question is if wiring the 100A shunt (66.6A continuous, 100A for 5 min) like shown is a bad idea or not with the electric start kicker flowing through it.  Ideally I'd like to be seeing net power to/from the selected battery aside from charge/starting current from the main.  Right now I've got an 80A resettable breaker to the safety hub and 30's for the downriggers.  The pot puller has been fine with a 40A fuse.

I also realize I'm not following the typical house/start configuration.  I like having everything powered off the selected battery (except the bilge auto switch.)

[positize]

Superb drawing!

That shunt will only give you a rough idea what is going on with your batteries IMHO. I would instead put a Victron SmartShunt in series with the large ground leads of each battery: that will very accurately track the state of charge of each battery individually.  Knowing your battery state of charge will tell you the most vital statistic we tend to care about: can I start my vessel at the end of the day?  The Victron SmartShunt has bluetooth output so you wouldn't need to clutter your helm with an ammeter or voltmeters (and save you the cost of buying meters): just visualize battery current, voltage and state of charge on your cell phone. Knowing battery State of Charge essentially allows you to track battery health and charging system functionality simultaneously.  If you are going to keep the shunt as in your drawing, I'd put the kicker on the same side as your main motor so you'd get current readings from either motor that is running.

I think your 1/2/Both wiring scheme (instead of start/house) is a great approach.  It lets you alternate between main batteries every other day so each battery gets a full workout every other day, where one battery acts as your primary battery and the second battery acts as your battery in emergency reserve.  Is a great setup.  The only downside I run into with this approach is some chartplotters will hiccup every time you start your engine due to the voltage sag your starter introduces.  That can be easily remedied by adding an on/off/on switch to power your chartplotter (such as a McMaster 6797T33) and set the chartplotter to get its power from the 'battery in reserve' each day.

One other detail is I would skip that ground busbar at the kicker and instead connect the kicker and downrigger grounds to the main busbar (maybe go with a larger main busbar).  The main busbar can be your combination DC ground bus AND bonding bus, plus you will use it as the reference for the galvanic isolator.  In grounding, the simplest way to understand you have it right is to have a primary grounding + bonding busbar, then you don't have to understand the subtle differences or why you would connect a wire to ground vs. bond potential.

Here's a drawing I did a while back that uses a Blue Sea 9002E (with AFD) and a McMaster 6797T22: this will give you the basic idea how to use a separate switch (SW1) to power your auto bilge and or chartplotter.  Note the two extra fuses/breakers (CB-2 & CB-3) within 7" of each battery (40" if sheathed) to go by ABYC standards of battery connections.  If you already purchased a 1/2/both without AFD, then you would use the McMaster 6797T33.  You may not need this extra switch: some chartplotters and radars are very sensitive to the starting voltage drop, others have well designed internal power supplies that conform to the automotive specifications and design style that allows for starting voltage sag.

[Barnaclebob]

Superb drawing!

That shunt won't really help you know what is going on with your batteries IMHO. You have it wired similar to the method we'd find in our automobiles where it will tell you the current flow in and out of your engine/alternator.  I would instead put a Victron SmartShunt in series with the large ground leads of each battery: that will very accurately track the state of charge of each battery individually.  Knowing your battery state of charge will tell you the most vital statistic we tend to care about: can I start my vessel at the end of the day?  The Victron SmartShunt has bluetooth output so you wouldn't need to clutter your helm with an ammeter or voltmeters (and save you the cost of buying meters): just visualize battery current, voltage and state of charge on your cell phone. Knowing battery State of Charge essentially allows you to track battery health and charging system functionality simultaneously.  If you are going to keep the shunt as in your drawing, I'd put the kicker on the same side as your main motor so you'd get current readings from either motor that is running.

I think your 1/2/Both wiring scheme (instead of start/house) is a great approach.  It lets you alternate between main batteries every other day so each battery gets a full workout every other day, where one battery acts as your primary battery and the second battery acts as your battery in emergency reserve.  Is a great setup.  The only downside I run into with this approach is some chartplotters will hiccup every time you start your engine due to the voltage sag your starter introduces.  That can be easily remedied by adding an on/off/on switch to power your chartplotter (such as a McMaster 6797T33) and set the chartplotter to get its power from the 'battery in reserve' each day.

One other detail is I would skip that ground busbar at the kicker and instead connect the kicker and downrigger grounds to the main busbar (maybe go with a larger main busbar).  The main busbar can be your combination DC ground bus AND bonding bus, plus you will use it as the reference for the galvanic isolator.  In grounding, the simplest way to understand you have it right is to have a primary grounding + bonding busbar, then you don't have to understand the subtle differences or why you would connect a wire to ground vs. bond potential.

Here's a drawing I did a while back that uses a Blue Sea 9002E (with AFD) and a McMaster 6797T22: this will give you the basic idea how to use a separate switch (SW1) to power your auto bilge and or chartplotter.  Note the two extra fuses/breakers (CB-2 & CB-3) within 7" of each battery (40" if sheathed) to go by ABYC standards of battery connections.  If you already purchased a 1/2/both without AFD, then you would use the McMaster 6767T33.  You may not need this extra switch: some chartplotters are very sensitive to the starting voltage drop, others have well designed internal power supplies that conform to the automotive specifications and design style that allows for starting voltage sag.

Thanks.

I'm not super concerned with the state of the charge of the battery, more just wanting to monitor power draw from the various equipment I have and seeing if the kicker is putting anything back in while trolling.  The voltage level should approximately tell me if the battery is getting low.  I also don't want to go with a much more expensive battery monitoring system.  I didn't put the main on the shunt because I assumed it could be too big of a power draw while starting.  If thats a bad assumption then yeah all of it combined might be better.

Also the kicker wires don't reach across to the other side and I wasn't sure if it was a better idea to extend them or put the small terminal post there that I can also hook the downrigger to.  I don't think my crimper is big enough for the kicker wires but I might need to buy a bigger crimper that can do 6AWG and bigger.   The current plan is to order any large gage wire from gregs marine, cut to length with connectors already attached.

My Garmin 943xsv chartplotter doesn't seem to mind the voltage drop when I start the main so I wont worry about start isolation for now with it.

[positize]

To answer your question about AC neutral + ground and DC ground, the simple answer is they need to all be at the same potential (for safety and stray current corrosion protection) but they all need to be separate buses.  AC neutral is its own bus, AC gnd is its own bus, DC gnd is its own bus. And you should having a bonding bus too. 

With shore power connected, and assuming you have no onboard AC power generation such as an inverter or generator, we want the DC gnd bus and AC gnd bus to be clamped to the same potential so any fault currents pass through the AC equipment and any metal on the vessel is at earth potential: that is what the galvanic isolator does for us.  You can connect the AC gnd and DC gnd directly (without a galvanic isolator), but then when you are moored, you are virtually guaranteed to have a potential difference between shore's protective earth potential and your DC water-referenced ground potential, thereby allowing stray current corrosion.

Some battery chargers are quite ill-behaved for marine use in that their AC ground connections are tied to the output DC rather than having floating DC outputs.  This will effectively negate the purpose of your galvanic isolator (and may trip your ELCI when connected to shore power when your vessel is in the water).  So is a good idea to ohm out your battery charger to ensure the outputs have no continuity to the AC ground.

[positize]

That wiring has the main motor's current flowing through the shunt but the kicker bypasses the shunt and goes directly to the loads (no current measurement of kicker).  Backward from what you described?

Assuming you are using the Blue Sea 100A shunt which is rated for 300A for 3 seconds, I would suspect that running the main through that shunt is OK.  Depends on how big your main motor is (how much current your main's starter motor requires).  With a Yamaha 115 and assuming you don't crank it for long periods (give the shunt time to cool if your motor is being a stubborn starter), I believe 300A for 3 seconds capacity is fine.  My guess from prior measurements is you will be in the high hundred to low two hundred amp range when starting that engine, except for a few hundred milliseconds when first engaged.

[Barnaclebob]

To answer your question about AC neutral + ground and DC ground, the simple answer is they need to all be at the same potential (for safety and stray current corrosion protection) but they all need to be separate buses.  AC neutral is its own bus, AC gnd is its own bus, DC gnd is its own bus. And you should having a bonding bus too. 

With shore power connected, and assuming you have no onboard AC power generation such as an inverter or generator, we want the DC gnd bus and AC gnd bus to be clamped to the same potential so any fault currents pass through the AC equipment and any metal on the vessel is at earth potential: that is what the galvanic isolator does for us.  You can connect the AC gnd and DC gnd directly (without a galvanic isolator), but then when you are moored, you are virtually guaranteed to have a potential difference between shore's protective earth potential and your DC water-referenced ground potential, thereby allowing stray current corrosion.

Some battery chargers are quite ill-behaved for marine use in that their AC ground connections are tied to the output DC rather than having floating DC outputs.  This will effectively negate the purpose of your galvanic isolator (and may trip your ELCI when connected to shore power when your vessel is in the water).  So is a good idea to ohm out your battery charger to ensure the outputs have no continuity to the AC ground.

Ok I think I've got that.  The past boat I partially rewired, I put in the same AC shore power components and charger without any issues.  I'd hope blue sea bonds/grounds everything correctly.  Ill get out the DMM and if the AC ground for the charger is connected to the DC ground and not DC+ then everything would be good.

Looks like I also need to add a 30A fuse near the charger on the DC negative per the chargers documentation.

[Barnaclebob]

That wiring has the main motor's current flowing through the shunt but the kicker bypasses the shunt and goes directly to the loads (no current measurement of kicker).  Backward from what you described?

I think my drawing might not be super clear.  But the main is going straight through the switch to the battery and therefor its current is not monitored.  The shunt will connect at the same terminal on the switch and the 3 wires coming off of the other side of it (kicker/downrigger/safetyhub) will be what is monitored for net current from the battery.

If I run the main through the shunt, I'd probably want to upgrade it to a 200A, 100mv shunt.  Another thread I found said the meter is good for reading currents higher than 100A.  And I'm pretty nervous having the main connect to anything but the switch so I'll have to research it and be 100% convinced its ok before doing that.

[positize]

OK, sorry about my prior post.  I think I have it now.  I needed to spend more time staring at your drawing.  I am assuming the main motor is on the common terminal of the 1/2/Both switch, Battery 1 is on the Input 1 terminal, and Battery 2 is on the Input 2 terminal.  Right?

- With the main running, the shunt will measure the load currents.
- With the kicker running, the shunt will measure the kicker's current into the selected battery but will not measure any of the load currents. 

Sounds like that is what you intended, but that would confuse me since the ammeter reads different things depending on which motor is running.  The other confusing part of this is with the main running, the load current will show as negative shunt current, but with the kicker running, the battery charge current will show as positive shunt current: a bit weird.

If you put the kicker positive lead on the same side of the shunt as the main, then the shunt would always measure load currents which I would find less confusing - and you would never exceed the 100A presumably. In that case, the battery voltage would, with either motor running, give you a rough indication whether the kicker was contributing to charging the battery.

[Barnaclebob]

OK, sorry about my prior post.  I think I have it now.  I needed to spend more time staring at your drawing.  I am assuming the main motor is on the common terminal of the 1/2/Both switch, Battery 1 is on the Input 1 terminal, and Battery 2 is on the Input 2 terminal.  Right?

- With the kicker running, the shunt will measure the kicker's current into the selected battery but will not measure any of the load currents. 
- With the main running, the shunt will measure the load currents but none of the battery currents. 

You've got it right.

With the kicker running, I'd be measuring the net current in/out of the battery. Say a 2 amp charge from the kicker, 10A draw from equipment, it would display a 8A draw from the battery.

The main running and no kicker I would just be measuring equipment draw and there would be an unknown amount of charge from the main.

This way I can see how kicker throttle affects charge and also monitor all of the equipment except current from the main.  It wont really give me any actionable info about the battery but really would be to just monitor the health of the boat and give possible occasional trouble shooting info.

[Barnaclebob]

Progress update.  The second big order of materials has started arriving so some real progress has been happening.  Most of the DC power feeder system is built and I got the new switch panel wired up.

Gregs Marine Wire shop again was incredibly fast and high quality.  They probably saved me $100 in connectors alone.

[davidsea]

  One of the few electrical things that's both very cheap AND very useful is a dual voltmeter, which displays main and house voltages together.  3-wire hookup, one (+) lead to the house power bus at the helm, one (+) lead to the motor constant (+) lead at the ignition switch, and a ground. For display on/off, put an inline switch in the ground lead.  Available in round dial or snap-in style, which fits in place of a standard-size Contura rocker switch.   Around $13 on e-Bay.

[GregE]

"Most of the major parts are here except new trim tab actuators/controls and the switch panel.

Currently just about everything is coming straight off the batteries, about 7 or 8 connectors stacked on top of eachother.



"

Electrical Punster

[fishmeister]

"Most of the major parts are here except new trim tab actuators/controls and the switch panel.

Currently just about everything is coming straight off the batteries, about 7 or 8 connectors stacked on top of eachother.



"

Electrical Punster

And he's doing this project because the resistance is unbearable.

[Barnaclebob]

Things have been coming together nicely.  It probably wont look as neat as some other peoples stuff because its hard to bundle up all of the wires coming from 5 different places near the batteries.

But the main power handling panel is in along with the charger which has its main power wires hooked up.  Just got the switch panel and all of those accessories hooked back up and the boat has power to it again.

Remaining chores:

Hook up the unswitched components in the cuddy.
New downrigger wiring.
120v wiring and component install
Trim tab actuator install and wiring.
Washdown wiring and plumbing.

[Barnaclebob]

Got the new gage cluster powered up and it looks really nice.

I also now see that ive got the switched pins on the switch panel reversed because the lower lamps should only illuminate when on.  Hopefully theres enough slack in my jumpers.

[Wiley]

Wow, I was proud of myself for getting my drum anchor puller hooked up to a spare battery in the cuddy. Now I'm trying to follow how to do an add a battery to charge it. You guys are so many levels beyond that. Wow. Disposable =wow. Y'all very very impressive...

[davidsea]

  When re-doing my dash, seemed like too much work to fill the holes, sand, and reapply the factory black vinyl just to make new holes, so I chopped out most of it and made a replacement from 3/8" black textured ABS, heated and bent to match the original dash contour, and attached with countersunk SS screws.   Benefits: easy to do, looks good, can easily be replaced if I need to change or move anything, and it's much easier to build, assemble and wire everything on the workbench in the garage, rather than upside-down in the cuddy...in the winter.   I did all the wiring through multi-pin plugs, except for the water pressure gauge and speedo, which are both tubing.... can be RnR'd in 10 minutes.