Author Topic: Re Wire Project Questions  (Read 6503 times)

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Offline GregE

Re Wire Project Questions
« on: January 22, 2015, 06:30:08 PM »
I've been working on re doing the wiring on our SR 19 HT.  The previous owner moved the batteries into the L companion seat and ran all sorts of duplex wires all over.  I've posted some pics before but will consolidate them here as I have some issues to figure out and it might be nice to have a full before and after.





ACR added and wires redone with remnants of the wood partitions.



Rear distro panels





Greg
Osprey 26 LC Kodak;  Arima SR 19 HT; SL 22 Honda 225
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Offline GregE

Re: Re Wire Project Questions
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2015, 06:47:29 PM »
Added Starboard partitions.  The Auto Charging Relay, Battery Switch and Marinco Charging system will fit in the L rear area.  I have spacers to give some air circulation behind them and will drill some vent holes also.  I have some cleats to support the SB ends and will use some spacers and tie downs on the batteries.






The Perko switch is large and I plan to use a Blue Sea 6011 Dual Circuit Plus one.  There is a fuse block in the rear- I may put them at the batteries also along with the protective covers.




Here's my dilemma.  The electrician had some family needs in CA so his partner did most of the hook ups.  I'm looking at the wire run and taking the boards out and see that there is one wire from the switch to the rear distro panel ( the other wire in the black hose is the ground).  It would carry battery one, two or both but I don't see how it would separate house and motor use.



What am I missing? 

Greg
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Offline Wyrguy

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Re Wire Project Questions
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2015, 07:45:51 PM »
GregE, The quick answer... That 'old Skool' Perko switch does NOT separate the house and motor use... so that's why there's only one positive cable running back from the switch :doh:  You'll need to rewire what you got to get what you want :shrug9:

I believe that I had said the same thing that the way the system was wired with that ACR wasn't going to work when you first posted this awhile ago.

$0.02 CDN

Rick


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Offline GregE

Re: Re Wire Project Questions
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2015, 08:14:33 PM »
First time I'd pulled it apart to see the connections.  Guess it's back to pulling wire- knew I left the fuel tank out for a reason. .  :biggrin:

I had the Blue Sea in the boat for him to use while I was in Colorado....   :facepalm:
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 08:18:19 PM by GregE »
Greg
Osprey 26 LC Kodak;  Arima SR 19 HT; SL 22 Honda 225
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Offline T-Rex

Re: Re Wire Project Questions
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2015, 10:46:16 PM »
Quote
Rear distro panels



This photo reminded me to add fuel valves
Thanks !!

While looking at it i also wondered if that white hose coming from the bilge area is in fact a discharge line, just wondering if you have a riser loop before it exits the hull ? It may be there i just thought i would mention it since your tank is out.
Cheers
Sea Chaser 17, Suzuki DF90A

Offline whale

Re: Re Wire Project Questions
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2015, 02:45:27 AM »
You might want to re position the fuel/water separator. It looks really tight. How do you drain it?
Are you able to slide a cup to catch the gas?
2014 Sea Chaser 17, Yamaha F90, T9.9

Offline Markshoreline

Re: Re Wire Project Questions
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2015, 06:59:37 PM »
Greg,
I'm sorry I didn't catch this before but if you meant that the batteries are now on the left meaning port side and you have a kicker on the same side you are going to have a serious weight imbalance especially if you have a passenger!  I'd shift the weight to the Right (starboard) side.
2002 Sea Ranger HT 21, Yamaha 150, Yamaha 9.9

Offline GregE

Re: Re Wire Project Questions
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2015, 09:03:50 AM »
Rick,  I've been looking for the comments you mentioned and diagrams that show house / motor ACR set ups ( other than the ACR package).  does anyone have a clear wiring diagram to share?

I plan to move the filter so my 'catch cup' will fit in the Starboard slot, and maybe use a shorter filter.

Mark, lateral balance may be a concern, the PO put both batteries in the storage seat box.  Since the boat hasn't floated yet   :redface: I'm not sure if my 210#  ballast is adequate.  Trim tabs are installed....

That is the sump discharge hose.  I haven't looped it but that's a good idea, also making sure I can pull the pump without having to disconnect the hose.

Greg
Osprey 26 LC Kodak;  Arima SR 19 HT; SL 22 Honda 225
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Offline ak-angler

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Re: Re Wire Project Questions
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2015, 09:31:04 AM »
What exactly are you looking to accomplish here, Greg? Seriously, I'm not being facetious. There are various ways to wire a dual battery system, each of which provides a different set of results regarding ease of installation, cost, ease of use, or back up redundancy (see what I did there?). BlueSea has quite a bit of info on the various ways they recommend their systems be installed, and there's also quite a bit they don't explicitly tell you (like - their ACR draws a small amount of power all the time if it's installed on the battery side of the switch.)

If you don't know exactly what you want to accomplish with the re-wire, it would be tough to walk you through the steps needed to get satisfactory results. So... first things first. How do you imagine you'd like your system to operate?
1985 Sea Ranger 17 Skiff Top with 2012 Suzuki DF90A

2007 Cape Cruiser Marinaut 26 with twin 2006 Honda BF90's

Offline GregE

Re: Re Wire Project Questions
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2015, 09:51:27 AM »
I have the ACR system and Blue Sea Dual  Circuit Plus to support separate battery ops for motor and house and combined if needed.

Re: my comments above they used the in place Perko with one battery wire to the positive buss.  I think a second battery wire to a separate buss for the starter and the single 1/4 " posts I have  (not pictured) should support that.

The boat will run as it's set up but since the fuel tank is still out I should run wire now.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 05:59:43 PM by GregE »
Greg
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Offline ak-angler

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Re: Re Wire Project Questions
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2015, 11:06:49 AM »
So, in its most basic form, you want one dedicated start battery and one dedicated house battery, with automatic charging of both from the outboard's alternator, and the option of combining them if necessary... yes?

I don't remember, do you have a second outboard that has the ability to charge the batteries?

I'm assuming you're keeping the battery charger shown in your pictures. Is it a single or dual output charger?
1985 Sea Ranger 17 Skiff Top with 2012 Suzuki DF90A

2007 Cape Cruiser Marinaut 26 with twin 2006 Honda BF90's

Offline GregE

Re: Re Wire Project Questions
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2015, 12:20:55 PM »
Yes to all..    :biggrin:

Don't think the T-8 has alternator output

dual bank Marinco charger- no problems on that hook up 

Here's a discussion that is similar,  I don't have shore power nor the breaker box.  Motor is 115 Yamaha

http://www.thehulltruth.com/marine-electronics-forum/528331-feedback-wiring-design-acr.html
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 12:43:20 PM by GregE »
Greg
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Offline ak-angler

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Re: Re Wire Project Questions
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2015, 01:36:18 PM »
OK... here's the wiring diagram I would start with (taken from the BlueSea website).



However, I would modify it to eliminate the parasitic draw from the ACR, and add the battery charger circuit.

First, I would connect the ACR wires to the top posts of the switch (the engine side, not the battery side).
Then, your dual bank charger would attach either directly to the positive battery posts, or to the lower posts of the switch.

Operationally, it would work like this...

With the switch off: both the engine circuit and the house circuit are open (no power to either circuit), and the on-board charger can still charge the batteries. The ACR can not draw parasitic power, and it can not combine the batteries.

With the switch on, the batteries fully charged, and the engine off (not charging): the engine is connected to the start battery and the house circuit is connected to the house battery, but each of these circuits are isolated from each other. If the voltage drops on either of the batteries, the ACR keeps them isolated. The ACR will draw some parasitic power.

With the switch on, and the motor running: the engine is connected to the start battery and charging it normally, while the house circuit is connected to the house battery (which is draining due to any house loads in use at the time). The ACR will sense the higher charging voltage on the Start circuit and open or close to allow the house battery to charge as necessary. If the on-board charger is turned on at the same time (say, you had the charger connected and decided to flush the motor in the driveway), the charge voltage may fool the ACR into not opening, but the charger will be charging both batteries anyway. In this case, I'd turn the charger off before starting the motor.

With the switch turned to Combine, and the motor off: both the start and house circuits will be connected to both batteries, and the ACR will essentially be bypassed. If both batteries are charged to the same voltage, the amp-hour capacity will be the sum of both batteries, and both batteries can be drawn down simutaniously by any active house loads. But if one battery has significantly less charge than the other, the combined voltage seen by the start and house circuits will be somewhere between the two voltages. That is to say, if you have a battery failure resulting in a DEAD battery, it may be best to disconnect that battery from the system and turn the switch to Combine. If you have a LOW start battery (possibly from cranking a motor that won't start due to having water in the fuel), you may be able to switch to Combine and continue cranking, at the cost of drawing your house battery down quickly. If you have a LOW House battery, (typically from running house loads too long with the engine off, like when trolling), you should be able to start the engine with the switch ON, and then switch to Combine to charge the house battery. This would only be necessary if the house voltage was low enough that the ACR reads it as having a fault and does not combine. (There is an LED on the ACR that provides the status of the system.)

With the switch on Combine and the motor running: The engine will try to charge both batteries as if they are one. If they are not of the same age, size, and type, this can lead to premature battery failure.


Wow - that got long winded... :facepalm:

1985 Sea Ranger 17 Skiff Top with 2012 Suzuki DF90A

2007 Cape Cruiser Marinaut 26 with twin 2006 Honda BF90's

Offline Wyrguy

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Re: Re Wire Project Questions
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2015, 03:59:16 PM »
Rodd, I couldn't have said it better myself!!!  :applause: :arms: :applause:

Wow - that got long winded... :facepalm: (and that's also why I didn't try to respond via my iPhone and Tapatalk!  :facepalm: :hoboy: :shrug9:)

Rick
'Arima Therapy' - Life begins were the land ends!
2012 Sea Legend HT, blue hull, S/S 6 rod rocket launcher/radar arch
F250 O/S & T9.9 Yamahas
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Offline ak-angler

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Re: Re Wire Project Questions
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2015, 04:30:21 PM »
After typing all that, I'm just glad somebody understood it! :redface:
1985 Sea Ranger 17 Skiff Top with 2012 Suzuki DF90A

2007 Cape Cruiser Marinaut 26 with twin 2006 Honda BF90's

Offline Markshoreline

Re: Re Wire Project Questions
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2015, 10:54:56 PM »
Yeah, well that would be Rick!   :jester:

Greg, I believe your T8 does have an alternator that produces a charge to the battery.

Also, the system battery charger should be mounted up a bit so that if you get water in the boat it won't short out.

Yes, with your weight off setting the batteries and kicker you're probably OK but with a passenger you are going to have a problem.
2002 Sea Ranger HT 21, Yamaha 150, Yamaha 9.9

Offline GregE

Re: Re Wire Project Questions
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2015, 01:12:40 PM »
All components will be mounted on Starboard cleats near the top of the box to give cooling space.  The charger is just sitting on the deck in the picture.

Since I plan to put another Storage seat on the other side I'm considering moving one battery there-  I just don't want to lose much storage space.  the would require another +/- wire routing ( same as is needed now) but the ground tie presently used should not be needed since a common ground buss is available.

I'll check on the T-8 alternator.  My buddy upgraded his  'Rude so it would charge his batteries while trolling and that seems worthwhile.

Charging the distant battery is now the challenge along with connecting to the ACR.....   :shrug9:

Greg
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Offline SeaPacer

Re: Re Wire Project Questions
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2015, 09:14:10 PM »
Mo Wires.... Mo problems. Keep it simple.
Tiderunner 18 - sold | Sea Pacer 17 - sold | Pro-Line 20' Walk - Yamaha F150

Offline GregE

Re: Re Wire Project Questions
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2015, 10:46:58 AM »
Yep.  Decided to run as is for now.  Hooking up the ACR and charger

Pics to follow
Greg
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Offline Wyrguy

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Re Wire Project Questions
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2015, 07:29:23 AM »
All components will be mounted on Starboard cleats near the top of the box to give cooling space.  The charger is just sitting on the deck in the picture.

Since I plan to put another Storage seat on the other side I'm considering moving one battery there-  I just don't want to lose much storage space.  the would require another +/- wire routing ( same as is needed now) but the ground tie presently used should not be needed since a common ground buss is available.

Charging the distant battery is now the challenge along with connecting to the ACR.....   :shrug9:

GregE, what you think your challenges are may not really be what your challenges are...

1) Providing 'cooling space' when mounting the switch/ACR, etc, ??? Not needed. If that stuff is getting hot, you've got BIG problems and providing a little space behind them ain't gonna fix that!!!

2) Are you moving one of the batteries to the other side? If you plan on doing that, be prepared for the HUGE amount (weight & $$$) of wire you'll need to do that and to also make it run correctly. :doh:

3) The wire length info that you've provided me doesn't give me enough to tell you any thing. I need total distance (measured along the route the wires will run) for both the positive AND negative conductors. If it's running to a distribution panel, the anticipated loads on that panel. If it's running to a buss bar to then to you motors, I need that distance. 'Guessing' doesn't work in my world and won't provide any help to you.

4) IMO, even changing out that 'Old Skool' Perko 1, 2, 1+2, off switch for the Blue Sea Dual Circuit Plus switch, using the wiring you had done previously...? Rip it out and start over, they're two totally different types of wiring systems (see AK Angler Rodd's post above) and there's no easy 'swap' like you're trying to do.

Rick


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'Arima Therapy' - Life begins were the land ends!
2012 Sea Legend HT, blue hull, S/S 6 rod rocket launcher/radar arch
F250 O/S & T9.9 Yamahas
Aluminum I-beam EZ Loader trailer c/w stainless disc brakes
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Offline GregE

Re: Re Wire Project Questions
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2015, 03:10:04 PM »
Both batteries are series 27 deep cycles- weigh about 42# each

As above-
plan A complete connections and run as set up,  fuses are in place.  A-1,  use Blue Switch instead of Perko.

    pro:  quicker
    con:  L/R balance

B- Install a smaller starting battery in the aft R sponson area.  Move the ACR and Switch there, leave Marinco dual charger there.

     pro:  short wire run for start and ground cables,  balances kicker wt, opens storage in the L seat and leaves R seat empty for  stuff
     con:  dual charger not needed- single could do everything thru the ACR,  Cable needed from 'house battery' to ACR.
Greg
Osprey 26 LC Kodak;  Arima SR 19 HT; SL 22 Honda 225
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Offline GregE

Re: Re Wire Project Questions
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2015, 08:07:50 PM »
Battery box connected.  Charger working, it does get warm ( but not hot) and the instructions call for air circulation.  I'll probably put some edge protection on the starboard wire run gaps. And I need another set of post protectors.

The Starboard offsets give me something to fasten into as well as air circulation.  The limber holes (vents) in the aft compartment aren't visible

« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 09:09:03 PM by GregE »
Greg
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Offline Croaker Stroker

Re: Re Wire Project Questions
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2015, 08:47:20 PM »
1987 - 17' Sea Pacer - 2004 Evinrude 90 E-tec
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Offline StreamFixer

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Re: Re Wire Project Questions
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2015, 07:54:31 AM »
Not a significant issue with our boats (Batteries don't sit in a bilge) but if anyone was curious:

Lead Acid batteries produce pure chlorine gas when liberally doused with sea water (sea water can get into the cells).  This is a reaction between the acid and seawater...  If you have a cracked battery (you did bring them in during that last week long freeze didn't you??) you should deal with it.

Chlorine gas is heavier than air, very green in color and absolutely, irrefutably DEADLY.  You will get a wiff of the chlorine spill if it occurs.  Get into a thicker concentration and the smell goes away, then you go away. 

StreamFixer
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Offline Croaker Stroker

Re: Re Wire Project Questions
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2015, 06:34:15 PM »

Hydrogen Gas in a closed compartment.....  boom.
1987 - 17' Sea Pacer - 2004 Evinrude 90 E-tec
15' Sea Sprinter - **SOLD**

"If a fish will, he will… if he won't, he won't… and that's about it… except… he may take this when he won't take that."