spare fuel tank in the cuddy?

[Rokefin]

Hello, new to the Arima club.
I took on the task of maintaining and storing a 17 ft Arima 115 Yami in which I now have learned how simple my life was before I took on this project, but I get to use this fine boat which gets me on the ocean much sooner than I was anticipating.

My "to do" list has grown everyday but there is one major issue I would like some feedback on. It has a two battery system, one bat was in the stern and one bat is in the cuddy - also in the cuddy is a 2nd aluminum fuel tank.
I am moving the cuddy battery back to the rear in the sponson area where the other battery is located as I was concerned about a battery being in a shared area with a fuel tank.

Now the big question is the cuddy fuel tank? I am learning that most all spare tanks are in the sideboard areas. Is the spare aluminum tank in the cuddy an acceptable practice? It looks custom made and fits well in the front of the cuddy but people have expressed concerns of the tank being up there.

Most of the fishing with this boat will be ocean salmon, rock, hali, but would like to chase tuna and that was the reason for the spare tank, this boat has had bloody tuna decks in the past. This boat has been rarely used in the last few years as the family has a 21 ft Arima so I am going thru the boat, motor, fuel tanks, electrical.......

I am in the process of removing the tanks and flushing them out and would love some feed back on the tank location.

[La-Z-Buoy]

There are a lot of options on Arimas regarding fuel tanks. Saddle tanks, seat tanks, etc. I would think that any fuel tank in the cuddy would require proper venting and maybe even forced ventilation. Other than that make sure the tanks are sound and hoses are marine grade and use fuel filters/separators.

The majority of Arimas have the tank in the back with batteries stowed on either side so apparently not a big issue.

[First Cabin]

If the second fuel tank was properly constructed, in good condition and vented to the outside per USCG requirements, I would love to have it! 

Also, many owners have moved batteries up front and done properly, there isn't anything wrong with that either.

Sounds like this boat is a fish killing machine!

[Wyrguy]

"TECHIE ALERT"
Wow, what a can of worms... The simple answer to your question is; wait, there's no simple answer!

Do you want the Readers Digest condensed version?
Can you leave it there? Depends on so many variables including such things as: who made the tank, the US gallon capacity of the tank, are the fill and vent complaint with the US Coast Guard/Federal EPA/ABYC Standards, how is it mounted, etc?

Here's just some examples that most have never even thought about:

FEDERAL LAW:
183.510 Fuel tanks.
(a) Each fuel tank in a boat must have been tested by its manufacturer under Sec. 183.580 and not leak when subjected to the pressure marked on the tank label under Sec. 183.514(b)(5).
Each fuel tank must be tested to see if it leaks. This leakage test includes all fittings supplied as part of the tank.
TEST PRESSURE
The test pressure must be the greater of 3 Pounds per square inch gauge (psig) or 1-1/2 times the pressure created at the lowest point in the fuel system when the fill or vent line, whichever is lower in height, is filled to its top with fuel, as indicated in 183.542. A 3 psig test will cover installations whose height from the lowest point in the fuel system is 6.4 feet to the lower of the fill or vent. See Figure 5 for height covered by various pressures. These heights refer to a head of gasoline and take into account the one and one-half times the head. The determined pressure is the minimum pressure that must appear on the fuel tank label. For the test procedure, refer to 183.580. Normally, the test is conducted by the tank manufacturer who applies the tank label. The boat manufacturer is responsible for determining that this test has been performed on the tank, in addition to the fuel system pressure test required by 183.542.

FEDERAL LAW:
183.510 Fuel tanks.
(c) Each fuel tank of less than 25 gallons capacity must not leak if tested under Sec. 183.584.
Each fuel tank less than 25 gallons capacity must be designed and constructed so that if selected to be shock tested according to the procedures of 183.584, it will not leak following the shock test when pressure tested to the pressure marked on its label, using the procedure described in 183.580.
Tanks tested at 25g. vertical accelerations, between 6 and 14 milliseconds duration, may be installed anywhere in the boat. Tanks tested at 15g., between 6 and 14 milliseconds, must be marked according to 183.514(b)(8):

"MUST BE INSTALLED AFT OF THE BOAT'S HALF LENGTH"

TO COMPLY WITH THE LAW
• The fuel tanks capacity is less than 25 gallons.
• The fuel tank will withstand the shock of the test described in 183.584.
• The fuel tank does not leak following the shock test. Use procedures described in 183.580. Use pressure marked on the tank label.


FEDERAL LAW:
183.514 Fuel tanks: Labels.
(b) Each label required by paragraph (a) of this section must contain the following information:
(1) Fuel tank manufacturers name (or logo) and address.
(2) Month (or lot number) and year of manufacture.
(3) Capacity in U.S. gallons.
(4) Material of construction.
(5) The pressure the tank is designed to withstand without leaking.
(6) Model number, if applicable.
(7) The statement, "This tank has been tested under 33 CFR 183.510(a)."
(8) If the tank is tested under Sec. 183.584 at less than 25g vertical accelerations, the statement, "Must be installed aft of the boats half-length."

The fuel tank vent outlet fitting must be located so that overflowing fuel coming out of the vent at a rate of up to 2 gallons per minute will not enter the boat. This requirement may involve deck design, cockpit coaming design, air vent location, hawsehole design for underdeck cleating of lines and any other opening where fuel would overflow into the boat.

So, having just touched on a small part of that standard, I'm thinking that this whole idea is so dangerous AND fraught with road blocks and hazards, I wouldn't even let Russ do it on his boat!!! (wait, that would mean he'd have to pry open the wallet chained to his belt...  :hoboy: some of those $$$ are probably older than me!!!  )

Good luck...

Rick

[Rokefin]

Rick you made my headache bigger!
You are correct - never thought about government regulation (but I never do)- I want to fish, but I am into being safe as possible. I am pulling the tanks now and will check for labeling, the tank install does look professional, it is vented to the outside and the tank is well secured, the tank itself looks real sanitary and fits real clean to the front - you can tell it was made for this application. I can test the tank here at work if need be.

I am flushing the tanks and installing all new fuel lines

[Wyrguy]

Rick you made my headache bigger!
You are correct - never thought about government regulation (but I never do)- I want to fish, but I am into being safe as possible. I am pulling the tanks now and will check for labeling, the tank install does look professional, it is vented to the outside and the tank is well secured, the tank itself looks real sanitary and fits real clean to the front - you can tell it was made for this application. I can test the tank here at work if need be.

I am flushing the tanks and installing all new fuel lines

You can test it if you want... it still won't meet the regs though, even if it 'passes'  :hoboy:

Each fuel tank in a boat must have been tested by its manufacturer under Sec. 183.580 

Still your choice...   

Rick

[croaker stroker]

Aren't most tanks tested by their manufacturers ?

[Rokefin]

Croaker Stroker, yes they are they would have to be. I am sure this is a made by a fuel tank manufacturer - I will know shortly. I think we were assuming it could be a home made tank.

[Threeweight]

The reg's Rick listed sound like they are applicable to the tank/boat manufacturer and pressure testing.

The US Coast Guard handbook section on fuel tanks and ventilation might be more applicable to your question.  See here:

http://www.uscgboating.org/regulations/boatbuilder_s_handbook/vent_partg.aspx

Do you have a photo of the tank?  How low is it mounted?  Does it fill from the outside of the boat, or do you fuel it up by dragging the hose into the cuddy?  Does it have an external vent to vent vapors as it is being filled? 

In general, with the cuddy door open you have better ventilation of that compartment than you do the rear fuel tank/battery area in an Arima.  Our outboard-powered boats, like other outboard boats, are not required to have vented compartments in the same way an an inboard does (where a backfire through the carbs could ignite fuel vapors in the bilge).  Thats why Arima does not install vents for the back (where the factory plastic tank vents more fuel vapor than your metal one).

My concern with a tank in the bow on a boat that will be used in ocean is less about venting and vapors and more about how much abuse it will take up there, and how a large amount of shifting liquid in the tank will affect the handling of the boat. 

Many of us who run offshore in smaller Arima's use 6 and 12 gallon deck tanks for additional fuel.  These work well, but take up more deck space.  If I were designing a custom fuel tank for extra fuel, and having someone weld it up for me, I'd want it mounted as low as possible in the boat (as in, the fish box, or if I used the cuddy, down in the port-a-potty area.)

[strokersquid]

"TECHIE ALERT"
Wow, what a can of worms... The simple answer to your question is; wait, there's no simple answer!

Do you want the Readers Digest condensed version?
Can you leave it there? Depends on so many variables including such things as: who made the tank, the US gallon capacity of the tank, are the fill and vent complaint with the US Coast Guard/Federal EPA/ABYC Standards, how is it mounted, etc?

Here's just some examples that most have never even thought about:

FEDERAL LAW:
183.510 Fuel tanks.
(a) Each fuel tank in a boat must have been tested by its manufacturer under Sec. 183.580 and not leak when subjected to the pressure marked on the tank label under Sec. 183.514(b)(5).
Each fuel tank must be tested to see if it leaks. This leakage test includes all fittings supplied as part of the tank.
TEST PRESSURE
The test pressure must be the greater of 3 Pounds per square inch gauge (psig) or 1-1/2 times the pressure created at the lowest point in the fuel system when the fill or vent line, whichever is lower in height, is filled to its top with fuel, as indicated in 183.542. A 3 psig test will cover installations whose height from the lowest point in the fuel system is 6.4 feet to the lower of the fill or vent. See Figure 5 for height covered by various pressures. These heights refer to a head of gasoline and take into account the one and one-half times the head. The determined pressure is the minimum pressure that must appear on the fuel tank label. For the test procedure, refer to 183.580. Normally, the test is conducted by the tank manufacturer who applies the tank label. The boat manufacturer is responsible for determining that this test has been performed on the tank, in addition to the fuel system pressure test required by 183.542.

FEDERAL LAW:
183.510 Fuel tanks.
(c) Each fuel tank of less than 25 gallons capacity must not leak if tested under Sec. 183.584.
Each fuel tank less than 25 gallons capacity must be designed and constructed so that if selected to be shock tested according to the procedures of 183.584, it will not leak following the shock test when pressure tested to the pressure marked on its label, using the procedure described in 183.580.
Tanks tested at 25g. vertical accelerations, between 6 and 14 milliseconds duration, may be installed anywhere in the boat. Tanks tested at 15g., between 6 and 14 milliseconds, must be marked according to 183.514(b)(8):

"MUST BE INSTALLED AFT OF THE BOAT'S HALF LENGTH"

TO COMPLY WITH THE LAW
• The fuel tanks capacity is less than 25 gallons.
• The fuel tank will withstand the shock of the test described in 183.584.
• The fuel tank does not leak following the shock test. Use procedures described in 183.580. Use pressure marked on the tank label.


FEDERAL LAW:
183.514 Fuel tanks: Labels.
(b) Each label required by paragraph (a) of this section must contain the following information:
(1) Fuel tank manufacturers name (or logo) and address.
(2) Month (or lot number) and year of manufacture.
(3) Capacity in U.S. gallons.
(4) Material of construction.
(5) The pressure the tank is designed to withstand without leaking.
(6) Model number, if applicable.
(7) The statement, "This tank has been tested under 33 CFR 183.510(a)."
(8) If the tank is tested under Sec. 183.584 at less than 25g vertical accelerations, the statement, "Must be installed aft of the boats half-length."

The fuel tank vent outlet fitting must be located so that overflowing fuel coming out of the vent at a rate of up to 2 gallons per minute will not enter the boat. This requirement may involve deck design, cockpit coaming design, air vent location, hawsehole design for underdeck cleating of lines and any other opening where fuel would overflow into the boat.

So, having just touched on a small part of that standard, I'm thinking that this whole idea is so dangerous AND fraught with road blocks and hazards, I wouldn't even let Russ do it on his boat!!! (wait, that would mean he'd have to pry open the wallet chained to his belt...  :hoboy: some of those $$$ are probably older than me!!!  )

Good luck...

Rick


WOW ! All this from a Canadian, Eh ? Impressive. He knows more about Uncle Sam's business than I do. Probably can even find Afghanistan on a world map !

[Threeweight]

The Coast Guard Auxiliary safety inspection handbook might be worth a look as well.  Here's the link:

http://www.uscg.mil/directives/cim/16000-16999/CIM_16796_8.pdf

Page 20 addresses compartments where fuel tanks are located.

[Wyrguy]

Stroker, yes a Canadian, and thank you for the compliment. The laws, regulations, & standards that Transport Canada have in place are exact copies (basically) of the US & European ISO standards with a few minor exceptions (metric conversions)

Having said all that,  I find some of these 'guesses' and summations about what someone THINKS the regulations say, incredulous!!! The regulations are the law, And then, they're only the MINIMUM! Having a cuddy door open and saying it provides more ventilation than the stern area is like comparing an apple and an orange. They're both spherical shaped fruit that grow on a tree... but that's all they have in common. Do you sleep or maybe spend time in that area, no. If there isn't an above deck fuel fill and external vent, dragging a fuel hose in to fill, are there any fittings below the top static level of the tank? If it's aluminum, is it spaced a minimum of 1/4" at the bottom off of deck structure measured when the tank is full? These are all violations... SERIOUS life threatening violations.
If someone wants to do these things to their boat, fill your boots!!! If someone asks the question if it's OK to do, I'll keep banging my head against the brick wall, but the standards are the minimum.
If anyone wants any help or additional information, PM me. No question is dumb or silly.

Rick


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GoodDays]

Hey Rick , what's the atomic weight of Lithium ?
GoodDays Greg

Well,   You said we could ask anything ;-)

[Steve]

Hey Rick , what's the atomic weight of Lithium ?
GoodDays Greg

Well,   You said we could ask anything ;-)

:biggrin:
Name: Lithium
Symbol: Li
Atomic Number: 3
Atomic Mass: 6.941 amu
Melting Point: 180.54 °C (453.69 K, 356.972 °F)
Boiling Point: 1347.0 °C (1620.15 K, 2456.6 °F)
Number of Protons/Electrons: 3
Number of Neutrons: 4
Classification: Alkali Metal
Crystal Structure: Cubic
Density @ 293 K: 0.53 g/cm3
Color: silvery

[Wyrguy]

Thanks Steve... And you're right, it's 6.941 ± 0.002 u

Rick

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Steve]

Whether legal or not. I would never mount or leave a mounted fuel tank in the cuddy of an Arima. There are other safer, smell free methods.

[croaker stroker]

Even if it's safe, properly installed and vented, abides by all the regulations.....it's gonna smell.

[ishan]

hey hey Rokefin
i told you these guys would tell you whats up!

nice to see the migration from humboldt tuna to  arimaowners
there is a wealth of info here!

if you get a minute free from working on the boat
there is a thread on this site about how people got their call signs...

whats rokefin?

[Rokefin]

Ishan  what's up!     Yea good info but like all threads lots of opinions. Don't get me wrong I respect all comments  and try to form my own conclusions with ALL the info....

Had an experienced seaman look at the tank set up this afternoon and he was impressed with the tank and install. It is well grounded and vented/filled from the outside. I am going to run with it and keep an eye on it until I feel all is ok..or I get blown to fish Heaven

Laughing a lot . Rokefin?  I was wondering  when someone might ask that question..

[ishan]

before you go buy your battery boxes
you at least need to look at the sliding battery whiz bangs
some guys on here have going....
http://www.arimaowners.com/index.php?topic=6655.msg75735#msg75735

[Rokefin]

Ishan, great call.  I was getting up in the morning to search for some battery boxes - I like those sliders. Might make the sliders a future project...

[Threeweight]

Sounds like you got your answer on the tank.  I did dust off my Coast Guard Boating Skills and Seamanship textbook... here's the chart on fuel tank ventilation.  You have a non-permeable metal tank, permanently mounted, vented to the outside, and grounded.  Since you have an outboard (no engine compartment in the boat), you meet the requirements as they were explained in the class I took  .

I'd still be a little concerned about the location for weight balance and pounding.  Maybe run it dry first on any long-range trip?

[Rokefin]

Sounds like you got your answer on the tank.  I did dust off my Coast Guard Boating Skills and Seamanship textbook... here's the chart on fuel tank ventilation.  You have a non-permeable metal tank, permanently mounted, vented to the outside, and grounded.  Since you have an outboard (no engine compartment in the boat), you meet the requirements as they were explained in the class I took  .

I'd still be a little concerned about the location for weight balance and pounding.  Maybe run it dry first on any long-range trip?

Thanks for the info and I will look into this tank issue a little more. That would be my plan on a long run to use up the front tank first. If there is alot of fuel smell I will go to another option. That cuddy is pretty small and is mainly a storage compartment so it is not like I will be napping in there.

Thank you for all the shared information

[wedocq]

Stroker, yes a Canadian, and thank you for the compliment. The laws, regulations, & standards that Transport Canada have in place are exact copies (basically) of the US & European ISO standards with a few minor exceptions (metric conversions)

Having said all that,  I find some of these 'guesses' and summations about what someone THINKS the regulations say, incredulous!!! The regulations are the law, And then, they're only the MINIMUM! Having a cuddy door open and saying it provides more ventilation than the stern area is like comparing an apple and an orange. They're both spherical shaped fruit that grow on a tree... but that's all they have in common. Do you sleep or maybe spend time in that area, no. If there isn't an above deck fuel fill and external vent, dragging a fuel hose in to fill, are there any fittings below the top static level of the tank? If it's aluminum, is it spaced a minimum of 1/4" at the bottom off of deck structure measured when the tank is full? These are all violations... SERIOUS life threatening violations.
If someone wants to do these things to their boat, fill your boots!!! If someone asks the question if it's OK to do, I'll keep banging my head against the brick wall, but the standards are the minimum.
If anyone wants any help or additional information, PM me. No question is dumb or silly.

Rick


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Here is a question Rick. What makes it a serious life threatening violation? (Other than violating the code you listed) Or worded differently, what potentially harmful things could come about from a fuel system such as this?
-Shawn

[StreamFixer]

I can help with a couple of answers to Shawn's questions:

Gasoline fumes are heavier than air, therefore they collect in low spots (same with propane so same basic problems).  I cannot imagine any of us would not have outside fill and proper external venting on the tank thus addressing that problem.  However, there are people who would, as Rick notes, drag a fuel hose into their cuddy to fill the tank.  Talk about a stinky mess.   :hoboy: 

No matter how carefully the hose is handled, there will be a few drops spilled.  And if it is not vented to the outside, as the tank fills, the gasoline fume laden air being displaced by the new fuel will simply be being pushed out of the tank and into the cuddy area.  It might (and I use that work advisedly) -- might not be rich enough to ignite, but it will surely stink like the dickens and be absorbed into every thing stored in the cuddy.

There can be situations where the fumes are too rich to ignite, that is their needs to have more atmosphere (oxygen) mixed into them to ignite.  If we had an ignition system on our boat's bilges, such as in-board motors, we would also have spark proof ventilation fans which need to be run for a minimum of 5 minutes before attempting to start the motor.

The clearance around the tank is to prevent 'chafing' which will eventually wear through the tank and/or hull from boat vibration when the motor is running or the hull is moving through the water.  A properly designed and mounted fuel tank will not have this problem. 

Remember these rules have been written to address what has been observed and proven to be dangerous.  Unlike many rules that have been made up from some bureaucrats imagination to keep themselves employed, these have been distilled from significant numbers of accidents and death through the years.  I'm pretty sure they have been around as long as I have been around boats which is has been 50+ years. 

Kind of like common sense, which is regularly proven to be a pretty poor survival system through the annual Darwin Awards...

StreamFixer