Author Topic: # of wires on battery post?  (Read 1599 times)

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Offline Ulua

# of wires on battery post?
« on: January 22, 2013, 12:25:40 PM »
I'll admit, I was a stacker. I am starting on the battery move and rewire and am completely confused.  How many wires can I put on a battery post? Looking at Blue Seas add a battery diagram http://bluesea.com/files/resources/instructions/5511e_web_version.pdf from the battery they have a power to battery switch wire, charging wire and an optional LED circuit. I also have an on board charger to connect. Are four terminals okay or do I need another bus? Can some of these go on the battery switch (electrically the same)
Thanks, Tony
85  17 Sea Ranger
2009 Honda 90
There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot.  ~Steven Wright

Offline GregE

Re: # of wires on battery post?
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2013, 06:08:36 PM »
Tracking this one-----  one of the boats I looked at had abuot 8 off of each post-  too much potential for problems IMO.

Buss bars do it much better
Greg
Osprey 26 LC Kodak;  Arima SR 19 HT; SL 22 Honda 225
http://www.sagecreekforums.com/phpforum/index.php
Sold:  Arima SE 16 WeeBait; SH 15 WeeBoat;
SR 21 NoBait;  SL 22 ReBait

Offline Wyrguy

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Re: # of wires on battery post?
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2013, 07:44:42 PM »
I'll admit, I was a stacker. I am starting on the battery move and rewire and am completely confused.  How many wires can I put on a battery post? Looking at Blue Seas add a battery diagram http://bluesea.com/files/resources/instructions/5511e_web_version.pdf from the battery they have a power to battery switch wire, charging wire and an optional LED circuit. I also have an on board charger to connect. Are four terminals okay or do I need another bus? Can some of these go on the battery switch (electrically the same)
Thanks, Tony

Thanks for admitting that Tony...  :facepalm:  You'll start feeling better now that you've got that out of your system!  :whistle:

For your question, 4 cables connected to one terminal is 2 too many in my world. The drawings for the Blue Sea equipment are not a wiring diagrams, they're only intended to show how the electrical circuiting should work. The way that I would do it if I was wiring your boat is to have 2 connections on each of the positive terminals of the batteries. One connection would be the run to the 5511e battery switch the other would be connected to the terminal of a MRBF that runs to the ACR terminal. (times 2, one from each battery) The ABYC requires a fuse in any circuit within 7" of where it receives its supply of current and the MRBF will satsify that and also Blue Seas requirement to have the inputs of the ACR fused as well. I would connect the positive outputs from your battery charger there as well on the terminals of the ACR. I have a single terminal MRBF on my starting battery and a dual MRBF on my deep cycle battery. They both are fused at 100 amps (the max output of my main motor alternator is 80 amps) and I use the dual terminal MRBF with a 30 amp fuse to feed a separate fuse panel (PN 5028 - ST Blade Fuse Block With Cover - 6 Circuit without Negative Bus) for several circuits of equipment that runs to  24 hr ccts; stern bilge pump, bilge high water alarm, some LED lighting that I'm running under the gunwhales, etc.
For ease of connections and running the wire, 2 bus bars are the best for yours and still staying with the 'rule of thumb', no more than 2 cables per terminal. One bus for the positive cable connection and one for all the negative connections. PN 2128 - 2 x 5/16"-18 studs , 6 x #10-24 screws would be for the negative connections (I'd also use the terminal cover even though it's not a mandated requirement) For the positive side after the battery switch, PN 2127 - 4 x 5/16 18 Stud Terminal WITH the terminal cover for sure, or you could use the DualBus Plus 150 Ampere Common BusBars PN 2723 - 2 x 5/16" Stud, 5 x 10-32 Screw Terminal that would cover both positive and negative in one location, but in my view, you don't need all those small terminations on the positive side, then you'd also have to have a whole bunch of loose fuse holders... easier to use the fused panel and a separate negative bus. A neater job, easier to trace out and everything is all together.

A 'wordy' reply... but I couldn't draw any pictures...  :shrug9:
Hope that it helps  :twocents:

Rick

ps: here's some of what greeted me on my boat right from the dealer...  :redface:  :nono: :nono: :nono:
'Arima Therapy' - Life begins were the land ends!
2012 Sea Legend HT, blue hull, S/S 6 rod rocket launcher/radar arch
F250 O/S & T9.9 Yamahas
Aluminum I-beam EZ Loader trailer c/w stainless disc brakes
Raymarine E120W, Scotty HP 2106 DR's c/w 15 lb glow ballzzzz!

Seattleflyfisher

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Re: # of wires on battery post?
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2013, 07:50:08 PM »
I'm lost :hoboy:

sff

Offline Threeweight

Re: # of wires on battery post?
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2013, 07:54:15 PM »
I think the dealer-installed distribution posts were fine, but the lack of any marine-grade terminals on the wires is a big no-no.  They also left a rats nest, instead of bundling them into some kind of orderly wire runs. 
Former Sea Chaser 17 owner
Wild Card, Hewescraft Ocean Pro 220, Honda 225 and 9.9

“Never turn your back on fear. It should always be in front of you, like a thing that might have to be killed.”
       --- Hunter S. Thompson

Offline Ulua

Re: # of wires on battery post?
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2013, 08:34:01 PM »
SFF, Well spoken! Hopefully I understand it after reading it another half dozen times. I got the part about MRBF (My Round Butt Failing). Rick, I'm holding off the thanks until I comprehend that paragraph. All kidding aside Thank you very much. That's what I was looking for. Now back to reading, putting it on paper in picture form and ordering more parts. Thanks Tony
85  17 Sea Ranger
2009 Honda 90
There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot.  ~Steven Wright

Offline Wyrguy

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Re: # of wires on battery post?
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2013, 08:54:17 PM »
Hang on guys... I just called my son and got him to read it (proof-read after the fact?) and his response was almost identical to SFF...  :1zhelp:

The problem is writing technical information isn't easy to get the points across... and I reverted to using a TLA (three letter acronyms) instead of names...  :redface:

MBRF = Marine Rated Battery Fuse

ACR = Automatic Charging Relay

Go to the Blue Sea Systems site and type/paste in the PN (part numbers) I've quoted... let me know if that helps?

http://bluesea.com/

...or here for some details and diagrams on the ACR and connections with the relationship to the other items:

http://bluesea.com/files/resources/technical_briefs/Technical_Brief_upgrading_battery_switching_and_charge_management.pdf

Rick
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 09:01:19 PM by Wyrguy »
'Arima Therapy' - Life begins were the land ends!
2012 Sea Legend HT, blue hull, S/S 6 rod rocket launcher/radar arch
F250 O/S & T9.9 Yamahas
Aluminum I-beam EZ Loader trailer c/w stainless disc brakes
Raymarine E120W, Scotty HP 2106 DR's c/w 15 lb glow ballzzzz!

Offline Markshoreline

Re: # of wires on battery post?
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2013, 08:58:34 PM »
I felt dumb but didn't want to admit to it.  Thanks, son!

Wait a minute....Isn't MBRF a 4 letter acronym and shouldn't it be MRBF?

I may be dumb but am paying attention!
2002 Sea Ranger HT 21, Yamaha 150, Yamaha 9.9

Offline Ulua

Re: # of wires on battery post?
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2013, 09:32:12 PM »
Thanks Son, SFF, Mark, Rick, I think I got it. Gotta get 1ea. 2127, 2128, 2151, 5191 and will have $3.00 left over (groceries for next month). Now to figure out what types of fuses these MRBF creatures take. I'm having stacking withdrawals!
85  17 Sea Ranger
2009 Honda 90
There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot.  ~Steven Wright

Offline Wyrguy

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Re: # of wires on battery post?
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2013, 09:44:03 PM »
It's easy... the MRBF terminal uses MRBF fuses!  :shrug9:

http://bluesea.com/category/81/22/productline/overview/379

...to fit on here:
•New isolated stud design uses standard M8 (5/16") hardware and permits stacking of terminals
•Compact, high-amp fuse—Appropriate for DC Main, inverter, windlass, and bow thruster circuit protection
•Provides high current protection in tight space constraints
•Weatherproof—suitable for small open-cockpit boats and other harsh environments
•Insulating cap prevents accidental shorts
http://bluesea.com/category/81/21/productline/overview/378

...or here:
http://bluesea.com/products/2151

... and look like this:

http://bluesea.com/files/resources/mounting_diagram/5191_drawing.jpg

Rick
'Arima Therapy' - Life begins were the land ends!
2012 Sea Legend HT, blue hull, S/S 6 rod rocket launcher/radar arch
F250 O/S & T9.9 Yamahas
Aluminum I-beam EZ Loader trailer c/w stainless disc brakes
Raymarine E120W, Scotty HP 2106 DR's c/w 15 lb glow ballzzzz!

Offline Peddler

Re: # of wires on battery post?
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2013, 07:39:29 AM »
I think the dealer-installed distribution posts were fine, but the lack of any marine-grade terminals on the wires is a big no-no.  They also left a rats nest, instead of bundling them into some kind of orderly wire runs.

At least one of the two posts should be covered as well, to prevent accidental shorting between the terminals.  (USCG requirement, not sure about Canada.)

Unfortunately, some the dealer rigging techs are not as educated as they should-be.  I know, because I was one in the mid-1990's at a Bayliner dealership.  They gave me a shop bay, and said "Here you go!"
Wishin' I was Fishin'

Offline Wyrguy

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Re: # of wires on battery post?
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2013, 08:14:43 AM »
I think the dealer-installed distribution posts were fine, but the lack of any marine-grade terminals on the wires is a big no-no.  They also left a rats nest, instead of bundling them into some kind of orderly wire runs.

At least one of the two posts should be covered as well, to prevent accidental shorting between the terminals.  (USCG requirement, not sure about Canada.)

Unfortunately, some the dealer rigging techs are not as educated as they should-be.  I know, because I was one in the mid-1990's at a Bayliner dealership.  They gave me a shop bay, and said "Here you go!"

The PowerPost Plus Cable Connectors are a great product, when used correctly. An issue though is that you then have a bunch of wires that now need separate fuse holders and they'll be hard to find and troubleshoot. Put in a small fuse panel and that problem is solved, within almost the same footprint.
You're right about the covering required for the power terminals Peddler, I wish that wasn't the only thing they got wrong  :facepalm: Some of the issues I had (other than the fact that NONE of the terminals on the positive side on ANY of the connections was covered) that really were bad, was the wire size on the batteries were way too small, there were only 3 of the circuits coming off the power post that had fuses and 2 of those fuses were the wrong size! One for the washdown pump was too small (10 amp instead of a 15 amp) the other was waaaaay too big (a 15 amp instead of a 2.5 amp). That fuse holder was buried in a bundle of wires, kicker control cables, and also the kicker fuel line!!! They had tightened the ty-wraps on that bundle so tight in places, the fuse holder was pinching the fuel line! If that fuse holder had shorted/overheated... a FIRE!!! And the dealer said the kicker was hard starting and running badly because "... it's new, it's got to break in, what do you expect?"  :nono: :nono: :nono:  Of course it was Murphy's Law the this kinda stuff would happen to the electrician... :shrug9: :facepalm: :redface:  Also, I don't blame the service techs, they're nice guys and have to do things the way the owner tells them to. :berry:

Rick
'Arima Therapy' - Life begins were the land ends!
2012 Sea Legend HT, blue hull, S/S 6 rod rocket launcher/radar arch
F250 O/S & T9.9 Yamahas
Aluminum I-beam EZ Loader trailer c/w stainless disc brakes
Raymarine E120W, Scotty HP 2106 DR's c/w 15 lb glow ballzzzz!