Author Topic: Electrical Question opinions  (Read 2853 times)

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Offline Ulua

Electrical Question opinions
« on: January 14, 2013, 09:19:50 AM »
All the old wood and wiring has been removed from the 80's 17SR. Now the work starts in putting it back together. Batteries are being relocated to the cuddy. My dilemma  is the Honda 90 has about 8' of cable coming out of it, I bought a dual power post to connect engine and 2awg wire to. Should I cut the engine wires and put the bus where the batteries were or coil wires and leave them long / run wires under the gunwale and install bus there. Thanks for the help.
85  17 Sea Ranger
2009 Honda 90
There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot.  ~Steven Wright

Offline Threeweight

Re: Electrical Question opinions
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2013, 10:28:04 AM »
I still need to do this project, but on my boat I would probably clip the cables back near where I intend to mount my bus (leave maybe 12" of extra wire), and install new lugs on the end of them.

In a 12 volt system, the longer the wire the greater the resistance (thus the need for bigger/thicker wires to carry the same current when the distance is increased).  The extra 6 or 7' of cable you will have could significantly increase the resistance in your loop.

Now, on the other hand, a the extra cable could come in handy if you ever moved the motor over to a different boat. 

I need to order the new battery cables for this project... still debating whether to go w/ #1 or #2 gauge in my 17' SC.
Former Sea Chaser 17 owner
Wild Card, Hewescraft Ocean Pro 220, Honda 225 and 9.9

“Never turn your back on fear. It should always be in front of you, like a thing that might have to be killed.”
       --- Hunter S. Thompson

Offline Ulua

Re: Electrical Question opinions
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2013, 04:19:59 PM »
Threeweight, You have me worried i'm under sizing the cables. Any one know the cold cranking amps of a Honda BF 90?
85  17 Sea Ranger
2009 Honda 90
There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot.  ~Steven Wright

Offline Wyrguy

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Re: Electrical Question opinions
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2013, 08:26:40 PM »
Ulua,
Cold cranking amps (CCA) is a battery rating not the current draw of a engine when starting. Marine batteries are usually rated in MCA (marine cranking amps) instead of CCA. Here's a description of the difference:

Cold cranking amps (CCA) is a measurement of the number of amps a battery can deliver at 0 degs F for 30 seconds and not drop below 7.2 volts. So a high CCA battery rating is especially important in starting battery applications, and in cold weather. This measurement is not particularly important in Deep cycle batteries, though it is the most commonly 'known' battery measurement.

MCA is cranking amps measured at 32 degs F for 30 seconds and not drop below 7.2 volts.

For your wire sizing issues, it'll depend on several variables. MCA/CCA of the battery, ampacity of the load (starter?), distance traveled AND the return.
As 3Wgt said, the longer the wires, the greater the resistance, the greater the resistance, the lower the voltage 'left over' to do the work you want it to do (ie: start, charge, etc) If you want, send me a PM with an email address and I'll help step you through it... FREE! (and that goes for anyone else on here too, well, except Chuckles... that will involve a 'road trip' I'm sure!  :party:)

Rick
'Arima Therapy' - Life begins where the land ends!
2012 Sea Legend HT, blue hull, S/S 6 rod rocket launcher/radar arch
F250 O/S & T9.9 Yamahas c/w iTroll
Aluminum I-beam EZ Loader trailer c/w stainless disc brakes
Raymarine E120W, Digital HD Colour radar, Scotty HP 2106 DR's c/w 15 lb glow ballzzzz!

Offline Threeweight

Re: Electrical Question opinions
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2013, 08:54:26 PM »
I think  my Suzuki 90 draws something like 90 amps under no load when cranking.

Here's the Blue Sea wire size calculator...

http://circuitwizard.bluesea.com/#

Assuming a 30' total run (15' long cables), 90 amps, and a 3% allowable voltage drop, I get a #1 gauge recommendation.  With a 5% allowable drop, I get #3.

I think you are probably ok w/ #2.

Several folk shave done this modification... might be good to quiz them on what they used.
Former Sea Chaser 17 owner
Wild Card, Hewescraft Ocean Pro 220, Honda 225 and 9.9

“Never turn your back on fear. It should always be in front of you, like a thing that might have to be killed.”
       --- Hunter S. Thompson

Offline Ulua

Re: Electrical Question opinions
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2013, 09:49:00 PM »
Thank goodness I haven't ordered the cables yet. I will cut the engine cables and go with 1 awg. "Probably be alright" sounds like a chance of doing it twice. Rick, thanks for the  free advice offer, I definitely will take you up on that before I'm done.

While you guys are down this way I can buy you Canucks some American beer. Boat is right down the road from the Silver Cloud at Point Defiance.

Thanks again Guys, Tony
85  17 Sea Ranger
2009 Honda 90
There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot.  ~Steven Wright

Offline StreamFixer

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Re: Electrical Question opinions
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2013, 08:08:57 AM »
(and that goes for anyone else on here too, well, except Chuckles... that will involve a 'road trip' I'm sure!  :party:)

Rick

And probably involve a tow of somekind   :whistle:

StreamFixer
'97 19SC w/ Salt Boss Top
'03 Yamaha 115 EFI
'05 Yamaha T8 Solas 4 blade prop

"By the grace of God we travel upon the rivers and sea..
They, like He, are mightier than me."  Mike Jesperson aka 'Nalu'

Offline Wyrguy

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Re: Electrical Question opinions
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2013, 08:22:20 AM »
Russ, I was thinking a road trip for me and it could be more like providing some 'relief' and moral support for J DooDad  :doh: :shrug9: :whistle: :arms: :jester:

Rick
'Arima Therapy' - Life begins where the land ends!
2012 Sea Legend HT, blue hull, S/S 6 rod rocket launcher/radar arch
F250 O/S & T9.9 Yamahas c/w iTroll
Aluminum I-beam EZ Loader trailer c/w stainless disc brakes
Raymarine E120W, Digital HD Colour radar, Scotty HP 2106 DR's c/w 15 lb glow ballzzzz!

Offline Chuck Jones

Re: Electrical Question opinions
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2013, 10:23:46 AM »
Rick:  Were you to show up down here...I'd have a quantity of some sort of spiritual substance to your liking around to keep you here for a while...I have no ulterior motives believe me....but my boat does need some rewiring.
(91) 19' Sea Ranger HT....SOLD 5/2013
(07) 21' Sea Ranger HT.....SOLD 3/2014
(05) 21' Design Concepts ...4/20/14

I often have silent thoughts in my head, but sometimes I worry about what they're thinking

Offline Wyrguy

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Re: Electrical Question opinions
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2013, 04:44:39 PM »
Hmmmmmm, between that and the great breakfasts made by the Mrs J DooDad that I've heard you talk about  :food: , we need to discuss this further for sure!  :whistle:

Rick
'Arima Therapy' - Life begins where the land ends!
2012 Sea Legend HT, blue hull, S/S 6 rod rocket launcher/radar arch
F250 O/S & T9.9 Yamahas c/w iTroll
Aluminum I-beam EZ Loader trailer c/w stainless disc brakes
Raymarine E120W, Digital HD Colour radar, Scotty HP 2106 DR's c/w 15 lb glow ballzzzz!

Offline Croaker Stroker

Re: Electrical Question opinions
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2013, 04:58:29 PM »

Wyrguy,

You may want to pick yourself up a boa and tu-tu....   Just say'in.
1987 - 17' Sea Pacer - 2004 Evinrude 90 E-tec
15' Sea Sprinter - **SOLD**

"If a fish will, he will… if he won't, he won't… and that's about it… except… he may take this when he won't take that."

Offline StreamFixer

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Re: Electrical Question opinions
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2013, 05:29:33 PM »
Be sure to get there in time for the San Francisco Parade.   :biggrin:  CJ tells me it is quite inspiring... :hoboy:

StreamFixer
'97 19SC w/ Salt Boss Top
'03 Yamaha 115 EFI
'05 Yamaha T8 Solas 4 blade prop

"By the grace of God we travel upon the rivers and sea..
They, like He, are mightier than me."  Mike Jesperson aka 'Nalu'

Offline Chuck Jones

Re: Electrical Question opinions
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2013, 07:57:26 PM »
It's more than inspiring, it's flat out entertaining.  Most of the participants can hit both sides of the door frame walking thru it on light loafers, chartreuse and leopard spot leotards, tu-tus, and hot pink feather boas.....John had the dressmaker over earlier today, and there was a trail of feathers leading up to the doorway.  I saw the stylist's  van parked out front and didn't stop in.  His wife was gone...I didn't feel comfortable.

BTW...I would have no problem giving this description out at the Xmas table.
(91) 19' Sea Ranger HT....SOLD 5/2013
(07) 21' Sea Ranger HT.....SOLD 3/2014
(05) 21' Design Concepts ...4/20/14

I often have silent thoughts in my head, but sometimes I worry about what they're thinking

Offline LvrWurst 21 SR Skip

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Re: Electrical Question opinions
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2013, 12:08:52 AM »
Well...since the original subject by Ulua has taken a dump.....FYI....after reading "Up Chuck's" post about rebuilding his kicker mount...I knew he'd  get into trouble....sure enough, I was hiding in the closet this morning and discovered him in the kitchen hugging my wife. Is nothing sacred, anymore?
He tried to cover his ass by explaining how costly it was to find bushings for his hydraulic kicker lift. Yeah...sure. So after much visiting with my wife and several cups of coffee, he finally got the parts out his truck and we ( I ) found an easy solution for him...fabricated the parts....and I promptly kicked him out.

Wyrguy...(ulterior motive?.....spiritual substance?) If you make the trip down to see Chuck...make sure you book  a motel within walking distance of Chuck's RV. He has only a single bedroom with "Queen" size bed and keeps the RV at sub zero temperature remaining hopeful that someone (anyone) will want to crawl under the covers with him.  Better to be forewarned. Oh, Yeah....he looks pretty funny in a speedo with his heart monitor and phone hanging round his neck.....shoulda got a picture of that....his phone goes off and in a panic he winds up pushing his heart monitor buttons which then requires him to connect up to a hard tele-line so he can call of his Doctors.  GEEZ LOUISE......

Disrespectfully submitted, J DOO
19' Jetcraft  Like new 115 Yami 4 Stroke 
SOLD  16 Sea Explorer - 17 SR Skip -19 SR Skip - 21 SR Skip

German Sausages are the WURST!

Offline GregE

Re: Electrical Question opinions
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2013, 12:36:25 AM »
Now, that's too weird  :redface:
Greg
Osprey 26 LC Kodak;  Arima SR 19 HT; SL 22 Honda 225
http://www.sagecreekforums.com/phpforum/index.php
Sold:  Arima SE 16 WeeBait; SH 15 WeeBoat;
SR 21 NoBait;  SL 22 ReBait

Offline Ulua

Re: Electrical Question opinions
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2013, 06:03:19 AM »
Sigh...at least I'll be able to use the boat wiring for warmth, while trying to get these pictures I've envisioned  to go away.
85  17 Sea Ranger
2009 Honda 90
There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot.  ~Steven Wright

Offline Wyrguy

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Re: Electrical Question opinions
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2013, 08:22:46 AM »
Don't worry Tony... in spite of them two, I'm still gonna help you out the best I can...  :doh:

Rick
'Arima Therapy' - Life begins where the land ends!
2012 Sea Legend HT, blue hull, S/S 6 rod rocket launcher/radar arch
F250 O/S & T9.9 Yamahas c/w iTroll
Aluminum I-beam EZ Loader trailer c/w stainless disc brakes
Raymarine E120W, Digital HD Colour radar, Scotty HP 2106 DR's c/w 15 lb glow ballzzzz!

Offline Chuck Jones

Re: Electrical Question opinions
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2013, 10:16:00 AM »
Jw's just jealous kuz he doesn't have a heart.  He has a gizzard. And let it be known that he's never around when I come visit his house.  I have a tracker on his phone so I know where he is.  Usually hanging around the men's room at the local park.

To get back on the subject of wiring.  I'd really like to tackle the rewire of the boat.  Rick posted a previous discussion of the fact they don't use marine wiring at the various boat dealers when they get the basic Arima and add in the accessories.  I was unaware of that...and since my hull is a 91, I'm sure it could stand some CPR in the wiring department.  I am impressed with you folks who tackle the rewire of your boats and put everything into looms wired to buss boards etc.  Does anyone have any idea how much it would cost to rewire a boat so that the wiring was all neat and organized like the pictures I've seen on this forum?  How many hours...obviously the question is affected by how many doo-dads you have on your boat....but is there a ballpark figure from you guys who've been there/done that?  I'm trying to figure out the costs involved and see if it's something I want to contract out.  Nothing is wrong with the current functionality, but I would really like to see it organized better and to get rid of the spagetti factory..
(91) 19' Sea Ranger HT....SOLD 5/2013
(07) 21' Sea Ranger HT.....SOLD 3/2014
(05) 21' Design Concepts ...4/20/14

I often have silent thoughts in my head, but sometimes I worry about what they're thinking

Offline Hydro-Therapy

Re: Electrical Question opinions
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2013, 11:06:05 AM »


What all this jibber jabber has to do with electrical is beyond me!!! :doh:

  H-T
Fish forever Work whenever !!!!!
"89" 19SR Keith 115 Merc. 15 4s kicker W/trollmaster Raymarine A70D

Offline Croaker Stroker

Re: Electrical Question opinions
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2013, 11:23:32 AM »


What all this jibber jabber has to do with electrical is beyond me!!! :doh:

  H-T


1987 - 17' Sea Pacer - 2004 Evinrude 90 E-tec
15' Sea Sprinter - **SOLD**

"If a fish will, he will… if he won't, he won't… and that's about it… except… he may take this when he won't take that."

Offline Markshoreline

Re: Electrical Question opinions
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2013, 12:20:44 PM »
I don't know either but it is one of the funniest posts I've ever read!  I also don't know whether to thank John or Chuck for it!

Quote
If you make the trip down to see Chuck...make sure you book  a motel within walking distance of Chuck's RV. He has only a single bedroom with "Queen" size bed and keeps the RV at sub zero temperature remaining hopeful that someone (anyone) will want to crawl under the covers with him.  Better to be forewarned. Oh, Yeah....he looks pretty funny in a speedo with his heart monitor and phone hanging round his neck.....shoulda got a picture of that....his phone goes off and in a panic he winds up pushing his heart monitor buttons which then requires him to connect up to a hard tele-line so he can call of his Doctors.  GEEZ LOUISE......
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 12:24:16 PM by markshoreline »
2002 Sea Ranger HT 21, Yamaha 150, Yamaha 9.9

Offline Wyrguy

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Re: Electrical Question opinions
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2013, 12:22:01 PM »
:stooges: ...OK, back to electrical:

Chuckles, as far as cost is concerned, the sky's the limit...! It really depends on a couple of things. How bad is the existing, and also how good is the installer as he'll charge an hourly rate. The 'bits & pieces' can be 'ballparked' in price by looking at a West Marine catalogue... as far as whom to hire, maybe a  'Jolly Fat Man from the North' (  :redface: pole?) would be kind enough to help you with that... I've got to 'line up a few ducks' in the next few weeks, then we'll 'talk'...  :wink:

Rick
'Arima Therapy' - Life begins where the land ends!
2012 Sea Legend HT, blue hull, S/S 6 rod rocket launcher/radar arch
F250 O/S & T9.9 Yamahas c/w iTroll
Aluminum I-beam EZ Loader trailer c/w stainless disc brakes
Raymarine E120W, Digital HD Colour radar, Scotty HP 2106 DR's c/w 15 lb glow ballzzzz!

Offline GoodDays

Re: Electrical Question opinions
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2013, 02:31:50 PM »
 :hoboy: Yikes !! I hope I am not the Duck being lined up.....   :shrug9:  I only booked enough time off work for a quick trip to Puyallup..... wasnt planning on going all the way to Californiacation   


GoodDays Greg

Offline woody

Re: Electrical Question opinions
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2013, 02:39:40 PM »
Chuck

I'm considered EZ acdc Wiring harness, snap connectors, panels and switches as a package approach.  Discussed at length on this forum, search.

If you Google  "EZ acdc wiring" you can peruse their site.

No magic answers, just more information for the brain to mull over.

Woody

Offline Chuck Jones

Re: Electrical Question opinions
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2013, 04:30:07 PM »
thanx Woody, I'll do an archive search...also go to the  EZ acdc website and take a look.
Cj
(91) 19' Sea Ranger HT....SOLD 5/2013
(07) 21' Sea Ranger HT.....SOLD 3/2014
(05) 21' Design Concepts ...4/20/14

I often have silent thoughts in my head, but sometimes I worry about what they're thinking

Offline Wyrguy

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Re: Electrical Question opinions
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2013, 04:59:37 PM »
:hoboy: Yikes !! I hope I am not the Duck being lined up.....   :shrug9:  I only booked enough time off work for a quick trip to Puyallup..... wasnt planning on going all the way to Californiacation   


GoodDays Greg

Don't worry Bagwhan, the 'ducks being lined up' are here at home... and besides, I wouldn't be so bold to drag the Bagwhan into the 'abyss' of that State of Californication... I'll volunteer to 'take one for the team' (VI Arimaniacs) when the time comes!  :1zhelp:

Woody, I have looked (online only) at the EZ ACDC wiring system in the past. One issue I had right off the start was their use of non-adhesive automotive style crimp terminations for most of their connections. I had sent them an email inquiry... no response!  :shrug9:
Another example was their use Blue Sea Systems (the best marine electrical equipment IMHO) for some of their systems, they then mix it with BEP VSR (see their dual battery set-up) and then they have what looks like brass terminal blocks ??? The Blue Sea 'Add-a-battery' system is a better ACR (automatic charging relay) that recognizes a charger output in the 'float mode' and stays connected in a parallel mode to charge both batteries where the BEP is a VSR (voltage sensitive relay) that has the tendancy to drop out as the voltage increases, connect again, only to drop out again, over and over, failing to completly charge the batteries and also increasing the chance of the VSR failing... The BEP products are pretty good, generally, but I still prefer Blue Sea.

The ease of using a pre-made generic wiring harness to re-wire is tempting I'm sure, but having to buy a harness that is made up for boats in 5' increments seems to be a waste if you have a boat on the shorter side of that (ie: < 15', 15'-20', 20'-25') and having exactly the length of wire you need rather than longer is better when it comes to VD issues as well (hang on, don't shoot coffee out your nose Russ, VD in electrical terms means Voltage Drop. It's a function of wire size, length, resistance)

It's easy for me to make these statements, I have the tools and a wholesale account..
These of course are just my professional opinions and your mileage may vary!

Rick
'Arima Therapy' - Life begins where the land ends!
2012 Sea Legend HT, blue hull, S/S 6 rod rocket launcher/radar arch
F250 O/S & T9.9 Yamahas c/w iTroll
Aluminum I-beam EZ Loader trailer c/w stainless disc brakes
Raymarine E120W, Digital HD Colour radar, Scotty HP 2106 DR's c/w 15 lb glow ballzzzz!

Offline Markshoreline

Re: Electrical Question opinions
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2013, 05:14:28 PM »
Actually, that was one of the more understandable explanations I've heard.

Thanks. 

So, do you get VD on your boat?
2002 Sea Ranger HT 21, Yamaha 150, Yamaha 9.9

Offline woody

Re: Electrical Question opinions
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2013, 05:18:49 PM »
Chuck, If you reach the stage of high interest they were responsive to Emails.  Expect phone calls also would be informative.  Explain your set up, they will recommend basic or deluxe approach.  Can be a small initial investment with later "add ons".

Rick, I also agree you outlined some plus/minus quite well.  There is always good, better and best approaches to every situation, most obvious when you investigate electrical.

Crimp vs. shrink/adhesive filled is one.  Blue Sea vs other components is another.  of course Arimas and others are going over 25-30 years with non tinned, crimp wire and fittings and a very large percentage of safe vessels have non Blue Sea equipment.  Few feet extra wire is doable.

I really appreciate your honesty in saying that you have the talent, the shop, equipment and the account to do it custom instead of generic.  While I would love to have a pro just do it, mass produced approaches as EZcd might help those of us without those resources   I have used factory harnesses for street rods and customs and found them helpful.

Looking for and giving information because no one I know has personal experience with EZ acdc. Thankfully we have guys like Rick who chip in and give us different views. I will solicit Rick's advice, expecially on critical "that's dangerous, don't do it" situations.


Woody
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 05:55:45 PM by woody »