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Plumbing for two bilge pumps question.

Started by BayWolf, October 30, 2020, 09:13:46 AM

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BayWolf

So, I pulled the tank, and did a real good cleaning. Also pulled out the old bilge pump.  I want to install two pumps for redundancy.  How do I plumb the discharge for the two pumps?  I thought a Tee from the two pumps to the discharge hose, but I think if one is pumping and the other isn't, then the water would just be pushed into and out the other pump rather than out the discharge hose.  I don't really want to put another hole in the boat for a second discharge hose.

I know a lot of you have done this...please let me know how.   

Also, what is the best method and placement for the pumps.  My original was screwed down to a small plate that is glued to the bottom.  It is right behind the fish box. 

I'm enlarging the access hole in the fish box to make getting to the pumps and cleaning the bilge easier.

Thanks.

p.s.  Please let me know the best way to wire in two pumps also.
"Forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."

First Sergeant
U.S. Army (retired) :flag:
WWW.Youtube.com/@Baywolf_Films

disposable

for plumbing, most people run a second hose to a second bulkhead. the factory bilge drain location can be hard to reach, but you can pretty easily route through  a bulkhead added into the motor well and then extend from there with an exterior hose if you prefer to discharge further... you could use check valves to a Y-fitting (way better than a T-fitting) and share one hose, but then you lose capacity in an emergency... and i know a guy who just went for it, without check valves, and says the return down the 'wrong hose' is minimal. personally, i like the second hose/outlet option, as you double your discharge volume in an emergency.

for mounting, plates are nice because they're easy to service but they elevate your pump so you'll leave a little more water. screws directly into the bilge need good sealant so you don't water log your hull material. one option is to glue the pump screen/basket directly to the hull and then the pump just clips to the basket.

for wiring, you will want two separate fused leads. some people like to leave one 'always hot', direct from the battery, on a float switch. this is especially common for people who slip/moor their boat, as they can walk away knowing small accumulation will be dumped automatically. i chose to put both of mine on switches: one is a simple on/off switch for a simple pump, the other is an auto/off/on switch for a float switch pump (not sure it saves much battery, but i just like that idea better; others will advise if that's stupid). however you do it, make sure you leave yourself some slack in the wire (idk about others but i have to pull/clean/replace my bilge pumps often), and try to make a place elsewhere to coil that slack to keep it organized (like near the gas tank).
Reveille
2012 Sea Chaser 17 (custom PH)
2013 Honda 90hp

BayWolf

Quote from: disposable on October 30, 2020, 09:46:15 AM
for plumbing, most people run a second hose to a second bulkhead. the factory bilge drain location can be hard to reach, but you can pretty easily route through  a bulkhead added into the motor well and then extend from there with an exterior hose if you prefer to discharge further... you could use check valves to a Y-fitting (way better than a T-fitting) and share one hose, but then you lose capacity in an emergency... and i know a guy who just went for it, without check valves, and says the return down the 'wrong hose' is minimal. personally, i like the second hose/outlet option, as you double your discharge volume in an emergency.

for mounting, plates are nice because they're easy to service but they elevate your pump so you'll leave a little more water. screws directly into the bilge need good sealant so you don't water log your hull material. one option is to glue the pump screen/basket directly to the hull and then the pump just clips to the basket.

for wiring, you will want two separate fused leads. some people like to leave one 'always hot', direct from the battery, on a float switch. this is especially common for people who slip/moor their boat, as they can walk away knowing small accumulation will be dumped automatically. i chose to put both of mine on switches: one is a simple on/off switch for a simple pump, the other is an auto/off/on switch for a float switch pump (not sure it saves much battery, but i just like that idea better; others will advise if that's stupid). however you do it, make sure you leave yourself some slack in the wire (idk about others but i have to pull/clean/replace my bilge pumps often), and try to make a place elsewhere to coil that slack to keep it organized (like near the gas tank).

Thanks!
"Forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."

First Sergeant
U.S. Army (retired) :flag:
WWW.Youtube.com/@Baywolf_Films

GregE

Two discharge hoses = two holes

Having fun yet???   :wink:
Greg
2005 SL 22 Honda 225 Kodak II
http://www.sagecreekforums.com/phpforum/index.php
Sold:Osprey 26 LC Kodak;  Arima SR 19 HT, Arima SE 16 WeeBait; SH 15 WeeBoat; SR 21 NoBait;  SL 22 ReBait

BayWolf

Quote from: GregE on October 30, 2020, 10:27:44 AM
Two discharge hoses = two holes

Having fun yet???   :wink:

Lol!  Actually, it is fun working on the boat. Cleaning the bilge and under the tank...less fun.
"Forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."

First Sergeant
U.S. Army (retired) :flag:
WWW.Youtube.com/@Baywolf_Films

Yachter Yat

     Don't be crazy!  Plumbing for two pumps out of one hull fitting shouldn't be a problem.   What you'll need to get is two check valves with one "Y"  fitting.   Here are the parts:  https://www.amazon.com/Marine-Return-Backflow-Prevent-Bilge/dp/B0163LG8UU   Should be a helluvalot easier than digging-out foam and drilling another hole in your hull.  Just my opinion, of course.   

Yat
History is not the past; it's the present, as we all carry it with us......James Baldwin    
16 SC/Honda 60  (sold)

Peddler

Quote from: Yachter Yat on October 30, 2020, 11:12:45 AM
     Don't be crazy!  Plumbing for two pumps out of one hull fitting shouldn't be a problem.   What you'll need to get is two check valves with one "Y"  fitting.   Here are the parts:  https://www.amazon.com/Marine-Return-Backflow-Prevent-Bilge/dp/B0163LG8UU   Should be a helluvalot easier than digging-out foam and drilling another hole in your hull.  Just my opinion, of course.   

Yat

Bingo!  Or is it YAT-zee?  :facepalm:
Wishin' I was Fishin'

Danno

Keepin mind that check valves restrict flow a little.
2015 19' Sea Chaser (2019 to current)
1998 19' Sea Ranger (2003 to 2008)

Lures are designed to catch fishermen not fish.

disposable

...and that in an emergency you would be pushing two pumps into one discharge. not sure if that's a huge issue, but i've seen bilge pumps prevent sinking of two boats.
Reveille
2012 Sea Chaser 17 (custom PH)
2013 Honda 90hp

Yachter Yat

   I suppose the more one considers this issue, the more we should emphasize the reason for two pumps to begin with.....right?   That reason, of course, being "volume"......particularly in an emergency situation.   Notwithstanding flow restriction, I believe two pumps would still push more water than one.  The only difference is; with two pumps, the flow coming out of the hull fixture would look like a high pressure fire hose, as opposed to your garden variety senior citizen, struggling to urinate with a swollen prostate.    :jester:   


Yat
History is not the past; it's the present, as we all carry it with us......James Baldwin    
16 SC/Honda 60  (sold)

AJFishin

#10
On my 17, 2 pumps and 2 hoses with one discharge hose outlet on the port side and the other in the same position on the starboard side.

Cleaning the bilge is fun ! I've done it so many times I can clean it in my sleep  :facepalm: :jester:

Any tough oil, grease, dirt, etc. comes off easy with Spray 9 and/or "De-Solv-It" Contractors Solvent, both can be bought at Home Depot or local shops, they work great!
'96 Sea Ranger 19, 2016 Mercury 115 EFI CT (115F231D) 
'96 Sea Chaser 16, 2019 Suzuki DF60AV (Sold) 
'87 Sea Chaser 17, 1987 Johnson V4 90 (Sold)
My YouTube channel: youtube.com/socalseachaser

BayWolf

Quote from: AJFishin on October 30, 2020, 01:52:42 PM
On my 17, 2 pumps and 2 hoses with one discharge hose outlet on the port side and the other in the same position on the starboard side.

Cleaning the bilge is fun ! I've done it so many times I can clean it in my sleep  :facepalm: :jester:

Any tough oil, grease, dirt, etc. comes off easy with Spray 9 and/or "De-Solv-It" Contractors Solvent, both can be bought at Home Depot or local shops, they work great!

Can I use Spray 9 full strength inside the bilge? Just spray it in all over, up inside as far as I can reach and let it sit for a bit, then stick the hose in there and spray it around?  Since I have the tank out, I want to do a really thorough cleaning job i there. 
"Forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."

First Sergeant
U.S. Army (retired) :flag:
WWW.Youtube.com/@Baywolf_Films

Markshoreline

Yep, you can use Spray9 full strength, I also have used other cleaners and degreasers but if your bilge looks anything like mine, allow a good rest period followed by a brush helps.

I use two pumps on separate circuits, fuses and switches.  The second one I exited the fitting on the port side which empties into the splash well, then drains from there.

Since I moor my boat some of the year, I don't use auto bilge pumps because I think there is a higher likelihood of getting enough water to keep the pump running that could drain the battery(s) than the boat sinking.
2002 Sea Ranger HT 21, Yamaha 150, Yamaha 9.9

BayWolf

Thanks everyone...as always, I never have to re-invent the wheel.  Years of experience and knowledge right here.
"Forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."

First Sergeant
U.S. Army (retired) :flag:
WWW.Youtube.com/@Baywolf_Films

DevMah

#14
Quote from: Yachter Yat on October 30, 2020, 11:12:45 AM
     Don't be crazy!  Plumbing for two pumps out of one hull fitting shouldn't be a problem.   What you'll need to get is two check valves with one "Y"  fitting.   Here are the parts:  https://www.amazon.com/Marine-Return-Backflow-Prevent-Bilge/dp/B0163LG8UU   Should be a helluvalot easier than digging-out foam and drilling another hole in your hull.  Just my opinion, of course.   

Yat

Running two pumps "Teeing" off one hose can cause the pumps to blow fuses or prematurely fail if you are staying with the diameter of one hose. They will definitely run with more amps due to more resistance cause by the check valves and smaller area of hose.

If you are going to go with only one discharge the double the line size  running out.

IMO
I would go with two separate hoses and pumps.

Dev

2015 21' Sea Ranger w 150 Yammy  (Tight lines) Sold
2012 Lund 1650SS  w 2012 60HP Mercury-Sold

First Cabin

I ran the discharge of my second bilge pump into the motor well.  I like it there because I can see when the auto bilge comes on.  The water   I also installed the bilge pump switch in the motor well so it can be reached from outside the boat so I don't have to crawl back into the boat while it is on the trailer to turn the auto bilge  pump on and off when I forget it....

I try to remember to turn it on when I put the plug in and turn it off when I take the plug out.  The bilge pump is wired directly to the battery.
First:  1982 15' SeaHunter, Yamaha 70 2-stroke, Yamaha F6
Second:  1987 17' SeaRanger, Merc 90 2-stroke, Yamaha F8
Current:  2002 17' SeaChaser, Yamaha F100, Yamaha T8

davidsea

#16
   The reason for larger, or dual, bilge pumps is to get as much water out of the boat as possible, in the shortest time.  Especially in an Arima, where you can't reach the drain plug from inside the boat, pumps are the only option until the water inside gets deep enough to use a bucket.  With that much water aboard, even well-powered boats won't be able to get on plane - I know, because I've tried it.  The factory-installed  500-600 GPH pump with a 3/4" discharge hose and through-hull isn't enough to make me feel secure.
   If you change pumps, the best you can do through the factory plumbing is around 700 GPH, because of the restriction beyond the pump.  Going from 3/4 to 1 1/8", with a quality, smooth-bore hose,  you can get nearly full-rated pump outlet up to around 2000 GPH.  It takes about 900 GPH to keep up with a missing drain plug - don't ask me how I know... :facepalm:
  In Arimas, when sitting in the water or level on the trailer, the 'low point' in the bilge is up near the helm, and when running on plane, it's back by the transom.  I have 2 Rule lo-pro 900 pumps installed, one near the factory location, the other up forward.  The forward pump is on-off switched, the aft one is switched on-off-auto , and uses a WaterWitch bilge sensor switch at the pump.  Both are plumbed separately - no check valves -  with the original through-hull replaced with 1 1/8", and a second one added right next to it.  The second through-hull installation, with the liner and foam,  is tedious but not really that difficult.
   Unless you convert to a positive-displacement pump (see Tunacious' posts), normal turbine-type bilge pumps are very sensitive to back pressure.  If you're going to all the work of pulling the tank and adding a second pump, trying to use the original hose and discharge makes no sense to me.  Y's, Tees, check valves, and under-sized plumbing restrict the output so much that all you're left with, really, is a spare bilge pump if the other one fails.   m2c
1996 SR19 Hdtp. - 2018 Honda  BF115D
2009 Duroboat 16 CC, Honda BF50  -  SOLD
and 19 other boats (I think, lost count)

Yachter Yat

#17
   If excessive pressure is your concern; those "Y" fittings are available in 1 1/8".  You would have to reduce to the 3/4" pump lines going into it, then (worst of all) change the hull outlet.  All that may not actually be worth it.  While I hear Dev's concern, I still have to question the true, potential negative effect of running two pumps out of that existing hull fitting....especially since we're only talking about 700 GPM each.  I'm sure many of us have seen these pumps run half-clogged for what seems like years on end.  That said, increasing the size of those pumps, without increasing the size of that outlet, might be another matter, altogether.   In the final analysis, seems First Cabin's idea of discharging into the motor well with the second pump might be the simplest alternative.  BTW, why the factory ever installed that corrugated hose is beyond me.  As davidsea suggests, I believe going to smooth bore hose would be a definite improvement.   My 2. 


Yat

Edit:  Sorry, but I should have actually rendered my own 'personal' opinion as to what I would do.  It's this:  Two pumps out of one hull outlet?.........No!   Regardless of location, I'd drill a second outlet, slightly increase the size of both pumps and go with smooth bore hose.   
History is not the past; it's the present, as we all carry it with us......James Baldwin    
16 SC/Honda 60  (sold)

BayWolf

Daivdsea's comment about where water (and everything else  :berry:) collects is interesting.  I noticed when I washed the bilge, I had to lift the front of the boat on a block to get the water out from the front to the back.  Also, since the drain plug sits about an inch higher, water can't drain completely out.  With the tank out, it can be sopped out, otherwise, that water will ALWAYS be in there.

About the water collecting in the front: Has anyone expanded the cuddy drain hole or the drain hole in the little ice chest in order to put a pump in there?  Whats under there that needs to be avoided on a 16 Chaser?

If I run a discharge hose from the front to the motor splash well, will that effect the the pump?
"Forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."

First Sergeant
U.S. Army (retired) :flag:
WWW.Youtube.com/@Baywolf_Films

disposable

#19
Quote from: BayWolf on October 31, 2020, 10:25:27 AM
Daivdsea's comment about where water (and everything else  :berry:) collects is interesting.  I noticed when I washed the bilge, I had to lift the front of the boat on a block to get the water out from the front to the back.  Also, since the drain plug sits about an inch higher, water can't drain completely out.  With the tank out, it can be sopped out, otherwise, that water will ALWAYS be in there.

yeah, both lame, and lazy design IMHO. while your gas tank is out, you could pour a little "ramp" of epoxy resin on the bottom of the hull so the water can't rest lower than the drain. my dad had that done on his new hull.

Quote from: BayWolf on October 31, 2020, 10:25:27 AM
About the water collecting in the front: Has anyone expanded the cuddy drain hole or the drain hole in the little ice chest in order to put a pump in there?  Whats under there that needs to be avoided on a 16 Chaser?

yes, common, though routing the wire can get tricky. most people put an access panel on the vertical surface there. you should be able to slide a hose along the hull. there is a bulkhead under the "doorway" (at least there is on the 17, i'd assumer there's also one on the 16s), but it has a "bridge shape" to allow passage against the hull.

Quote from: BayWolf on October 31, 2020, 10:25:27 AM
If I run a discharge hose from the front to the motor splash well, will that effect the the pump?

i don't see how, the only resistance against the pump comes from the "head", not the "run". that said, you'll never get rid of the water in the hose, so that volume will always trickle back down to the pump. i think it's just better to keep the nose up...

my driveway slopes forward so look what i have to do:
Reveille
2012 Sea Chaser 17 (custom PH)
2013 Honda 90hp

First Cabin

Quote from: BayWolf on October 31, 2020, 10:25:27 AM
Daivdsea's comment about where water (and everything else  :berry:) collects is interesting.  I noticed when I washed the bilge, I had to lift the front of the boat on a block to get the water out from the front to the back.  Also, since the drain plug sits about an inch higher, water can't drain completely out.  With the tank out, it can be sopped out, otherwise, that water will ALWAYS be in there.

About the water collecting in the front: Has anyone expanded the cuddy drain hole or the drain hole in the little ice chest in order to put a pump in there?  Whats under there that needs to be avoided on a 16 Chaser?

If I run a discharge hose from the front to the motor splash well, will that effect the the pump?

Keep in mind that the Arima doesn't hold very much water in the bilge.  Though disconcerting, the volume of water trapped in the bilge under the front cuddy is minimal in the small Arima.  It's only a couple inches deep and maybe 18" wide.  Not enough water is trapped  to warrant a bilge pump up front.  I'm lucky that I have a sloped driveway so when I wash the boat, I get full drainage.  A few ounces remaining in the bilge isn't going to hurt anything.   

Actually, you'd be surprised by how little water is held in the bilge.  I challenge you to put the plug in and fill the bilge with water.  Then pull the plug and capture it in 5 gallon buckets.  I don't think you will fill two.

If/when you have water coming into the boat, you'll know you might have a problem when the water starts covering the back deck!!!!
First:  1982 15' SeaHunter, Yamaha 70 2-stroke, Yamaha F6
Second:  1987 17' SeaRanger, Merc 90 2-stroke, Yamaha F8
Current:  2002 17' SeaChaser, Yamaha F100, Yamaha T8

disposable

#21
^very true. a well-made hull should hold water in just as well as it holds water out, so technically, you could fill the entire boat with water during storage and not need to worry. i've seen some boat yards with hot tubs full of water in hulls for extended periods of time, and no reason to worry. but that said, if you had an imperfection that admitted water into your hull's interior, it would only take a repeated thimble-full of water to foul the fiberglass. that's a big if, and no reason to worry for most of us, but i like to keep the water out (also because water can get funky and stink).
Reveille
2012 Sea Chaser 17 (custom PH)
2013 Honda 90hp

Yachter Yat

    Some great discussion here.   If I may, please allow me to put-in a couple cents?  Thank you!  Okay....here goes:   It didn't take too many seasons into the ownership of my Arima before I came to realize something unusually interesting about how this boat behaved; especially in 'steep' water.   Yes....I admit, it could "shake-you-up" a bit when attempting to hustle your way home under sloppy conditions.  But that aside, (and unlike some of my previous boats),   I discovered it had an almost idiosyncratic habit of refusing to allow its nose to be buried under water; almost regardless of how deep of a trough it happened to fall into.   

     I'm not sure how many years later, but at one point, (while standing in the driveway, staring back at this thing) I was amazed to see how the keel on this boat seemed to "taper-down" toward the bow.  Was this an illusion?  It was like, the boat was higher......thicker......(however you want to say it) at the bow.  Now, am I curios?  (You don't have to answer that, but let's just say; if I was a cat, I'd be long gone)  Ha    Anyway...one day, what I wound-up doing was, placing a 4 foot level on the gunwale and getting it as close to level as possible.  I then placed the level on the keel.  Wow!  Go ahead and try this, and you'll see what I mean. 

    So, what is this is going to tell you?  Well, two things, basically;  One:  In order to get these Arima bilges to drain as completely as possible, you will need to raise the bow high enough to get that keel negative.  (For the sake of argument, let's just call that the "downside")   For number two, however, the "upside" is how this design feature may, indeed, contribute to the extraordinary level of seaworthiness these little boats are so famous for.  If there's a moral to this, it's probably that; almost no positive benefit is without its cost.  Keeping this in mind, ask yourself how many Youtube clips you might have seen, portraying small boats turning into "submarines" while attempting to navigate a rough inlet.   I'll gladly "jack-up" my Arima to drain.....thank you. 


Yat
History is not the past; it's the present, as we all carry it with us......James Baldwin    
16 SC/Honda 60  (sold)

BayWolf

I fixed the "water in the keel" problem.   I just drilled a 2" hole in the bottom.  She's nearly bone dry now!
"Forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."

First Sergeant
U.S. Army (retired) :flag:
WWW.Youtube.com/@Baywolf_Films

Yachter Yat

History is not the past; it's the present, as we all carry it with us......James Baldwin    
16 SC/Honda 60  (sold)