Author Topic: Electrical Gremlin  (Read 715 times)

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Offline Koopa253

Electrical Gremlin
« on: September 27, 2020, 02:21:24 PM »
When I go to start the main engine the negative battery terminal throws a spark. I have seen the spark on the positive side but mainly just happening on the negative side. I have not installed and new electronics, my battery is less than a year old, and none of my connections are corded. I went ahead and ordered and new Perko on/off switch, but wanted to see if anyone had any recommendations? We keep are boat in good running condition and all my connections are the expensive heat shrink connections. I have attached a video that shows the spark near the end of the video. I also will try to post a pic to try to get some input because I know I’m missing the fuses/relay’s on the battery terminals, but I only run a single bank setup.
2006 Arima SeaHunter
2014 Suzuki 60 HP
2018 Suzuki 6 HP

Online Chief of the Boat

Re: Electrical Gremlin
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2020, 02:58:33 PM »
Get rid of the wingnuts, cleanup the connectors, threaded post and put a washer with a locknut.

Online croaker stroker

Re: Electrical Gremlin
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2020, 03:52:55 PM »

A spark usually means a bad connection.
1987 - 17' Sea Pacer - 2004 Evinrude 90 E-tec
1985 - 15' Sea Sprinter - **SOLD**

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Offline DevMah

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Re: Electrical Gremlin
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2020, 04:04:40 PM »
Get rid of the wingnuts, cleanup the connectors, threaded post and put a washer with a locknut.


X2 you have either loose or corrosion at the battery connections ,  I do not recommend wing nuts either.

Dev
2015 21' Sea Ranger  (Tight lines)
2015 Yamaha F150
2012 Mercury 9.9 Bigfoot 4 blade
2012 Lund 1650SS  w 2012 60HP Mercury-Sold

Offline Koopa253

Re: Electrical Gremlin
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2020, 10:37:37 PM »
I already went through all the connections and cleaned and tightened them. I really don’t think the wing nuts are the problem as I have been running them for 14 years now, with no issues. I will go through all the connections again a second time and change out the wing nuts but I don’t really think that’s what causing it.
2006 Arima SeaHunter
2014 Suzuki 60 HP
2018 Suzuki 6 HP

Online Fisherdv

Re: Electrical Gremlin
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2020, 10:47:26 PM »
Get rid of the wingnuts, cleanup the connectors, threaded post and put a washer with a locknut.
X3. Change out the wing nuts. It’s the first place to start, then go from there.

Check connections at the starter under the cowling as well.
2018 Sea Chaser 16, Honda BFP60

Offline First Cabin

Re: Electrical Gremlin
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2020, 07:58:55 AM »
Interesting.  Look forward to learning what the issue is.

Recently helped a friend with wing nuts on his battery terminals.  You can not tighten them properly without a wrench...since you need a wrench...why not use a proper fastener?  I won't be surprised if the spark goes away once it is properly tightened.

My other thought is that one of the expensive heat shrinked connections is hiding something....maybe the crimp underneath isn't good...  I've done that myself.

First:  1982 15' SeaHunter, Yamaha 70 2-stroke, Yamaha F6
Second:  1987 17' SeaRanger, Merc 90 2-stroke, Yamaha F8
Current:  2002 17' SeaChaser, Yamaha F100, Yamaha T8

Offline Koopa253

Re: Electrical Gremlin
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2020, 10:18:27 AM »
I found corrosion on the negative side of the Safety Hub 150 and on the wing nuts themselves. I don’t think it was the wing nuts themselves (tightness) that was the main issue but the combination of the corrosion and the wing nuts that caused the arching. I switched to normal nuts. Do I still use the locking washers with the normal nuts? Also, since most of the electrical experts have already chimed in, would you mind telling what I’m missing in order to make things ABYC compliant? I have a few pictures to post. I know I don’t have the fuses/breakers on the battery terminals but I’m not sure what size I would order from blue seas and if I need one for both positive/negative or where exactly it goes?  I guess I probably should get some boots for the terminals as well. I just run a single bank with a pull start kicker (kiss approach). No desire to install another battery in such a small boat but carry the NOCO Genius for emergencies. Any comments/suggestions are greatly appreciated, and thanks for chiming in on the initial issue. I’m now a believer that wing nuts are not your friend.
2006 Arima SeaHunter
2014 Suzuki 60 HP
2018 Suzuki 6 HP

Online Fisherdv

Re: Electrical Gremlin
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2020, 11:16:08 AM »
I use SS nylock nuts, with a SS washer underneath. I don’t think wingnuts are ABYC compliant. (May depend on the size of the boat).

As far as fusing the battery terminals, I use the Blue Seas MRBF (marine rated battery fuse), on the positive side only. With a 60HP motor, I think you will be fine with a 150-175A MRBF.

Use ignition protected parts, especially so close to the fuel tank.

Proper mounting of that Perko switch would be a must also.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 11:19:46 AM by Fisherdv »
2018 Sea Chaser 16, Honda BFP60

Online AJFishin

Re: Electrical Gremlin
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2020, 04:25:10 PM »
 :yeahthat:

Yep get SS nylock nuts and SS washers !
I had a issue a couple years ago all because of wing nuts. Once I got rid of them, the gremlin died.
1996 Sea Chaser 16, 2018 Suzuki DF60AV
1987 Sea Chaser 17, 1987 Johnson V4 90

My SC17 project videos:
www.youtube.com/socalseachaser

Offline Koopa253

Re: Electrical Gremlin
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2020, 04:54:57 PM »
Fisherdv, due to the limited space I would like to keep the things on the battery terminals to a minimum, if possible. Is it ok or advisable to use a Blue Seas 187-series Circuit Breaker rather than a MRBF for the positive terminal protection? I thought I have seen these utilized for this but was wonder what you thought about a breaker rather than a fuse. I also like the idea of being able to reset it rather than changing the fuse, if possible.
2006 Arima SeaHunter
2014 Suzuki 60 HP
2018 Suzuki 6 HP

Online Fisherdv

Re: Electrical Gremlin
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2020, 05:08:22 PM »
Fisherdv, due to the limited space I would like to keep the things on the battery terminals to a minimum, if possible. Is it ok or advisable to use a Blue Seas 187-series Circuit Breaker rather than a MRBF for the positive terminal protection? I thought I have seen these utilized for this but was wonder what you thought about a breaker rather than a fuse. I also like the idea of being able to reset it rather than changing the fuse, if possible.
You could use a breaker, but it must be as close as possible to the battery. I don’t remember off hand, but I believe it’s within 6-8 inches. With the breakers, you will need to mount it with two screws vs the MRBF the just goes on the positive battery terminal.

If you have lots of wires stacked on the battery posts already, it’s advisable to use buss bars instead.

I’ll let Dev have the final word.
2018 Sea Chaser 16, Honda BFP60

Offline DevMah

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Re: Electrical Gremlin
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2020, 07:30:25 PM »
I use SS nylock nuts, with a SS washer underneath. I don’t think wingnuts are ABYC compliant. (May depend on the size of the boat).

As far as fusing the battery terminals, I use the Blue Seas MRBF (marine rated battery fuse), on the positive side only. With a 60HP motor, I think you will be fine with a 150-175A MRBF.

Use ignition protected parts, especially so close to the fuel tank.

Proper mounting of that Perko switch would be a must also.

I agree mount the Perko battery switch, it’s not good to have it vibrate or bounce around. The Perko is ignition protected.

Dev
2015 21' Sea Ranger  (Tight lines)
2015 Yamaha F150
2012 Mercury 9.9 Bigfoot 4 blade
2012 Lund 1650SS  w 2012 60HP Mercury-Sold

Offline DevMah

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Re: Electrical Gremlin
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2020, 07:39:49 PM »
Fisherdv, due to the limited space I would like to keep the things on the battery terminals to a minimum, if possible. Is it ok or advisable to use a Blue Seas 187-series Circuit Breaker rather than a MRBF for the positive terminal protection? I thought I have seen these utilized for this but was wonder what you thought about a breaker rather than a fuse. I also like the idea of being able to reset it rather than changing the fuse, if possible.
You could use a breaker, but it must be as close as possible to the battery. I don’t remember off hand, but I believe it’s within 6-8 inches. With the breakers, you will need to mount it with two screws vs the MRBF the just goes on the positive battery terminal.

If you have lots of wires stacked on the battery posts already, it’s advisable to use buss bars instead.

I’ll let Dev have the final word.


ABYC  E11

Mounting placement dimensions for a fuse or circuit breaker (7"/40"/72" ABYC rule): 7 inch maximum if the conductor is not housed in a sheath or enclosure in addition to the wire insulation, 40 inch maximum if the conductor is housed in a sheath or enclosure in addition to the wire insulation, 72 inch maximum if the conductor is connected directly to the battery and housed in a sheath or enclosure in addition to the wire insulation.

https://www.defender.com/category.jsp?id=2290020&path=-1%7C328%7C2290016

So 72” if in the loom.

No more than 4 terminals on one post as per ABYC E11


I recommend fusing or a breaker at the battery, I also recommend you fuse the line feeding the helm station.
175-200A on the breaker if you want to go the route for the main feed off the battery.

Please note for smaller outboards ABYC and US coast guard Regs do not apply in the USA.. just good practice.
Transport Canada has adapted all ABYC regs and it is mandatory on pleasure craft.

http://boatingindustry.ca/current-news/7681-abyc-and-transport-canada-announce-one-set-of-marine-safety-standards-throughout-north-america

https://tc.canada.ca/en/marine-transportation/marine-safety/acceptance-alternative-construction-requirements-small-vessels



Dev



« Last Edit: September 30, 2020, 04:50:58 PM by DevMah »
2015 21' Sea Ranger  (Tight lines)
2015 Yamaha F150
2012 Mercury 9.9 Bigfoot 4 blade
2012 Lund 1650SS  w 2012 60HP Mercury-Sold

Online AJFishin

Re: Electrical Gremlin
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2020, 08:35:10 PM »
I have the breaker and a MRBF fuse and blew the fuse one day, don’t know how, glad I had it though. But haven’t had an issue ever since.
1996 Sea Chaser 16, 2018 Suzuki DF60AV
1987 Sea Chaser 17, 1987 Johnson V4 90

My SC17 project videos:
www.youtube.com/socalseachaser

Online Fisherdv

Re: Electrical Gremlin
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2020, 09:03:24 PM »
I have the breaker and a MRBF fuse and blew the fuse one day, don’t know how, glad I had it though. But haven’t had an issue ever since.
What size fuse did you blow? Was it on the MRBF? Did it blow while starting? Just curious.
2018 Sea Chaser 16, Honda BFP60

Offline DevMah

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Re: Electrical Gremlin
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2020, 09:13:46 PM »
I blew a 200 A one cold winter morning.. nothing was wrong it was more like the starter was frozen and overloaded the fuse, I changed the fuse and combined my batteries (400A of fusing) motor started up and then no issues through the day on one battery.

Fuses are great as they have a fail safe disconnect, but have to be replaced eventually...
Breakers work good but have the issue or arching the contacts which can led to them not resetting or not disconnecting, that’s why many breakers have a trip button to test them periodically.

IMO
I would rather blow the fuse then ignite my run to the starter any day.



Dev
« Last Edit: September 30, 2020, 04:49:34 PM by DevMah »
2015 21' Sea Ranger  (Tight lines)
2015 Yamaha F150
2012 Mercury 9.9 Bigfoot 4 blade
2012 Lund 1650SS  w 2012 60HP Mercury-Sold

Offline Koopa253

Re: Electrical Gremlin
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2020, 08:28:53 AM »
Thanks for everyone that has chimed in, really appreciate the help and knowledge.
2006 Arima SeaHunter
2014 Suzuki 60 HP
2018 Suzuki 6 HP

Online AJFishin

Re: Electrical Gremlin
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2020, 03:42:11 PM »
I have the breaker and a MRBF fuse and blew the fuse one day, don’t know how, glad I had it though. But haven’t had an issue ever since.
What size fuse did you blow? Was it on the MRBF? Did it blow while starting? Just curious.

It was MRBF 150A and it happen with my old Yamaha when I went to start it one morning heading out to fish and I heard a pop. I checked it out and noticed it was blown, took it off and went out fishing. I've since replaced it with no issues.
Don't know why it blew, maybe just a bad one :shrug9: The other one on my house battery I got at the same time and it's still good.
1996 Sea Chaser 16, 2018 Suzuki DF60AV
1987 Sea Chaser 17, 1987 Johnson V4 90

My SC17 project videos:
www.youtube.com/socalseachaser

 

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