Author Topic: Battery Switch Installation  (Read 6060 times)

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Offline chet

Battery Switch Installation
« on: February 09, 2012, 11:31:27 PM »
So I'm a little confused about the battery switch (BS).  I looked at a few of the rewire post's and it looks like the engine output wires are going into BS FIRST and then feeding the batteries.  Where does the negative wire go from the engine if the load wire is in the battery switch?  Do you just put that one (ground) onto a battery a pig tail it to the other battery and then to the fuse boxes...etc? 
 
Also, does anyone know if the space in the 19 is the same size as the space in the 17 (under the bait tank - battery area)?  I'm basically doing the same thing as "Tubbs" on his rewire post (http://arimaboatownersgroup.com/index.php?topic=1563.0) , except I purchased the 6007 instead of the Dual Circuit Plus.  Not sure which one I should use now.  When I was thinking about this I wanted to choose which battery I was using, except now I'm rethinking it I'm not sure if I should keep the 6007 or return it and get the dual circuit plus.  Please advise any pros or cons or point out things I'm not seeing on those two battery switches.

I just held up the Safety Hub 150 under the starboard bait well; like Tubbs has mounted in his post Rewire.  It seemed like once the batteries are in, I won't easily be able to change a fuse if needed.  So my question is; If I mount the Safety hub 150 up by the helm around 7-9' away from the batteries, what problems or concerns could I have?  I would basically be running a longer cables from the BS or stern area around 8-10' to the Safety Hub 150 (4 AWG wire? I assume)  Any concerns with doing this? I added the installation instructions for the 150 to this post.  Would I also need to put in the MIDI/AMI fuse like it shows?  Does the BS protect like this fuse would?

I hope that makes sense...

Thanks..Chet

Sorry...Can't attach pics of instructions...to large for post.  I'll try and figure away around it.

Offline viking

Re: Battery Switch Installation
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2012, 08:36:33 AM »
chet

I installed a common negative bus back there and run all my negatives to it, thus only one negative on each battery.  I use a dual bus w/ inline fuses for my electronics (3 downriggers, tr1, rear fishfinder) in the back so I can still snake my hand back in there and change out a fuse if needed.  I looked at the 150, but I could not get back there to change out fuses so stayed w/ the dual bus bar.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 09:20:26 AM by viking »

Offline tubbs

Re: Battery Switch Installation
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2012, 09:17:34 AM »
Chet,

I chose the safetyhub for the rear for a few purposes.

1.  Reduce number of cables directly connected to batteries
2.  Provide common ground for rear(motor. downriggers, pumps, etc)
3.  Provide fused power to devices in the rear and a fused feed to the fuse panel in cuddy

I placed the safetyhub in the spot that I figured would give me the most access to it.  Space is limited in the area.  I figured I could tuck the switch farther back as it is easier to reach back and turn the switch than it would be to replace a fuse. 

Placing a fuse panel in the front of the boat to feed the rear of the boat defeats the purpose.  You would be running a long cable from the battery switch to the fuse panel then long wires back from the fuse panel to every device you wanted serviced by the fuse panel.

86 17 Arima SR
Suzuki DF90A

Offline Threeweight

Re: Battery Switch Installation
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2012, 10:50:29 AM »
Re: your ground, I did the same thing as Viking, basically.  I put a big negative post on the wall at the back of the compartment, then ran all my major negative connections off it.  You can kind of make it, in the back above the batteries, out in this photo:



Re: your safety hub... what Tubbs said.  The fuses are designed to burn out when a particular load causes the cable to over-heat.  Thus, you want them as close to the battery as possible, as the heat is going to be greatest there.  By the time the fuse blows up front, you could have insulation melting (or worse, on fire) at the back of the boat.

The Blue Sea switch and ACR does not have a fuse built in... for my #6 wire running to my front fuse panel under the dash, I installed a big "Maxi-Fuse" ahead of it w/ a 30 amp fuse.  If you look at the photo, the Maxi Fuse is just behind the Blue Sea Switch... wire comes off the switch, to the Maxi-Fuse, then from the Maxi-Fuse to my rear fuse block, then on to the big fuse block under the dash.
Former Sea Chaser 17 owner
Wild Card, Hewescraft Ocean Pro 220, Honda 225 and 9.9

“Never turn your back on fear. It should always be in front of you, like a thing that might have to be killed.”
       --- Hunter S. Thompson

Offline Danno

Re: Battery Switch Installation
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2012, 11:00:28 AM »
Hi Chet. Yes, the 17' and 19' Arimas are tight under the bait tanks if you have both batteries on the same side. When I saw the photos of Tubbs' location for his fuse panel and switch, I thought that having the fuse panel in the easiest to reach location was very smart. I was thinking that maybe it could be stacked with the switch to keep both close to the front but I think he did it right. If your Arima were to take on water, having the fuse panel and switch higher would keep them working longer which may be the difference in whether you recover from a bad situation.

You can find a dual battery tray for under $20 and that saves at least an inch of room. Also make sure your batteries are mounted as close to the inside panel as possible. You might consider mounting the battery switch above the gas tank and behind or in the main Starboard panel like 3wt has.

If you run either any farther than about 20" from the batteries, those lines will need to be fused as well defeating the purpose. Plus you will find a few items are best fed power from the rear of the boat such an automatic bilge pump or your downriggers or wash down pump.

The safety hub 150 can be mounted in all four rotations so I would mount it with the fuses along the bottom and the negative bus on the left. That also shortens the height by an inch.

Previously owned a 1998 19' SR

Lures are designed to catch fishermen not fish.

Offline chet

Re: Battery Switch Installation
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2012, 06:20:01 PM »
Cool...thanks for the ideas and info.  Do most of you have the Dual Circut Plus or use other BS ( e series or M series?)  Which do you like and why?

Thx...Chet

Offline Danno

Re: Battery Switch Installation
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2012, 07:41:53 PM »
The switch selection comes down to whether you're running two batteries and how you are going to tie those two batteries into your helm and outboards. If you run one battery as a starting battery and the second as a house battery, then use the Dual Circuit Plus e-style. If you are going to run everything on one battery but want to use a switch to choose between two (second battery acts as a back up) then use the 4 position e style.

The M series are an inch smaller but I can't see any other differences other than the lower amperage capacity but that appears to be designed for outboards so it should be okay.
Previously owned a 1998 19' SR

Lures are designed to catch fishermen not fish.

Offline Threeweight

Re: Battery Switch Installation
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2012, 10:54:43 PM »
I have the Dual Circuit Plus e-style... I really like it for running two batteries, and would recommend it.
Former Sea Chaser 17 owner
Wild Card, Hewescraft Ocean Pro 220, Honda 225 and 9.9

“Never turn your back on fear. It should always be in front of you, like a thing that might have to be killed.”
       --- Hunter S. Thompson

Re: Battery Switch Installation
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2012, 09:07:07 AM »
Chet,
I am working on a battery rewire of my 17' this weekend and went with the Blue Sea 5511e battery switch and ACR. I went with this kit because I don't want to have to worry about switching batteries during the day. The M series switch is cool, but it is small. It might be to too small for stacking any cables.

I also used a Safteyhub 150 in the back of the boat. It provides a common negative bus for the negative motor and battery cables (and small grounds too), and fused positive terminals for positive leads. Engine positive cable goes to the switch.

I'm running a my downriggers off the SH150 atc fuses and used one 30A midi for a run to the helm with 4 AWG cable. At the helm I have a small Blue Sea fuse block (vhf, ff, and anything w/o a switch) and a Blue Sea switch fused switch panel (for nav lights, bilge pumps, horn, wiper, and anything else that needs a switch). 

The engine and a battery negatives are on the Safteyhub 150. You could also put the engine negative straight to the start battery instead, then simply tie the batteries together and run a cable to the common bus.

I installed my hub behind the batteries. Not a great spot, but I don't plan on having to change out fuses very often. The Safetyhub is tough to get at when the batteries are installed. Changing an ATC fuse is possible, but changing the midi fuses with the batteries installed would be difficult or impossible. Consider moving things around and locating the hub to a place where you can get to it better, but it really needs to stay in the back of the boat.

Here is a pic. As you can see it's a tight fit.
'87 Arima Sea Ranger 17

Offline StreamFixer

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Re: Battery Switch Installation
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2012, 09:39:56 AM »
TBurger

While the space is indeed cramped .  You have done a nice job.   :bowdown:

StreamFixer
'97 19SC w/ Salt Boss Top
'03 Yamaha 115 EFI
'05 Yamaha T8 Solas 4 blade prop

"By the grace of God we travel upon the rivers and sea..
They, like He, are mightier than me."  Mike Jesperson aka 'Nalu'

Offline chet

Re: Battery Switch Installation
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2012, 11:36:34 AM »
Tburger, nice job!!..looks good.  I think I'm going to return the 6007 and get the dual circuit plus.. I appreciate everyone's posts.  I'll post some pics as I get stuff done.  Probably this week.


Re: Battery Switch Installation
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2012, 08:09:17 PM »
Thanks fellas. I'm still working on it. I will post pics when it's done. Chet, there is a Blue Sea m-series switch for Dual Circuit Plus. See http://bluesea.com/category/78/1/productdocs/6011. I went with the larger switch as part of a kit. The small switch is pretty cool and might be perfect.
'87 Arima Sea Ranger 17

Offline chet

Re: Battery Switch Installation
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2012, 08:26:58 PM »
Turkey B,  I'm feeling a ready to go.  I ordered that M series today and returned the 6007.  Basically, I'm feeling pretty good.  Only thing left I'm trying to figure out is where to wire the ACR to the battery or to the BS.  Also trying to figure out about in line fuses.  Seems like if I'm under 20" in cable no need for them.  I still haven't decided on the spot yet for the components.  Are you going to mess with the LED light from the ACR?  Keep the pics coming.

Re: Battery Switch Installation
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2012, 07:55:36 AM »
Chet, I stacked the ACR cables on the battery switch. I believe you can also stack the cables on the ACR, or just use busbars or powerposts. That way the cables aren't so cramped on the little m-series switch. Please verify this with Blue Sea if you go this route.

Here is a link to a Blue Sea resource: http://bluesea.com/viewresource/96. What is says is that you don't need a fuse for battery cables 7" or less. 40" or less if the cables are enclosed in an enclosure or sheath. I didn't uses fuses between the switch and batteries. My longest cable is 24". I figure our batteries are enclosed under the bait well  so I'm ok. I could also add a piece of split loom to any cables between 7-40" to bring the wiring up to standard.
'87 Arima Sea Ranger 17

Offline GregE

Re: Battery Switch Installation
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2012, 08:31:15 AM »
Threeweight- My marine electrician warned against mixing lead and gel batteries as the charging rates are different.  You'll end up undercharged or overcharged depending on how you set them up.

Chet, post some progress pictures.
Greg
Osprey 26 LC Kodak;  Arima SR 19 HT; SL 22 Honda 225
http://www.sagecreekforums.com/phpforum/index.php
Sold:  Arima SE 16 WeeBait; SH 15 WeeBoat;
SR 21 NoBait;  SL 22 ReBait

Offline Danno

Re: Battery Switch Installation
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2012, 09:01:55 AM »
TBurger, that's interesting info on the wire lengths for determining whether to use a fuse or not. It's more empirical in that my recommendation wasn't written but based on a conversation with a BlueSea engineering. His comment was based on the fact that just to run a fuse, you need some length of wire that is unprotected plus the extra connections add some additional factors. I'm not worried about the difference between their 7 inches and my 20" values.

What's difficult for me to understand is why the enclosed or sheath cover cables get more leeway. Yes, they will protect melting wires from creating a fire hazard for a longer period and I suspect that is the reason for the 40" allowance. But, the extra jacketing means the wire will heat up faster.  Maybe it comes down to the difference between finding a solution that works for the application and one that protects from the hazards of failure. Both paths should be considered important.

It's dang hard to do anything with a 7" cable though. It takes more cable just to cross from the far battery. Sounds like we should be using either heavy jacketed cable (is there such a thing) or add something to increase the insulation factor. That tacky silicone tape would be a good solution since silicone is naturally high temp and fire resistant.
Previously owned a 1998 19' SR

Lures are designed to catch fishermen not fish.

Offline viking

Re: Battery Switch Installation
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2012, 10:31:29 AM »
I went ahead and used the 2ga battery terminals w/o fuses.  That many fuses many fuses seems a little bit overkill if the runs are that short.

Offline tubbs

Re: Battery Switch Installation
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2012, 11:00:49 AM »
From the doc blue sea doc regarding what to fuse and not to fuse

ABYC Standards exempt wiring between the batteries, the main battery switch and the starter motor.

My though is that I  would include the ACR in this list. If you look at the diagram in the document it has a blue area and a orangish area.  Blue no fuse required and orange fuse required.    The wire that feeds a fuse panel in the rear would be in the orange area but given its short lenght I would think it is questionable.

86 17 Arima SR
Suzuki DF90A

Offline woody

Re: Battery Switch Installation
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2012, 11:26:07 AM »
I went back and dug up some of my conversations with the Blue Sea nerds.

Here are some excerts:

....."we recommend ACR be installed between the batteries and not connected to the battery switch"

..... "The primary ACR terminals (A and B) get wired to the battery positives" .

......"the panels are essentially obsoleted by our Dual Circuit Plus Battery Switch."   "If you absolutely need the ability to switch your isolated banks seperately (.... most small boaters do not) then the panel is a good solution.

..... "the Add-A-Battery is a good solution and is considerably less expensive then ACR plus a panel and makes a tidier installation to boot"

...... http://bluesea.com/files/resources/instructions/6619.pdf  are for PN 8280.  I wouldn't recommend this route"

..... "The ACR won't "prioritize" your battery charge.  All the ACR does is sense a charge source present (indicated by a high enough voltage) and offer the charge to both batteries.  The ACR is dual sensing:"cable length is measured from source of power AND BACK" ... Add a battery instructions plus wiring diagram (scroll down) http://bluesea.com/files/resources/instructions/990310020.pdf "

.. ... "approp wire size and circuit protection http://circuitwizard.bluesea.com# " ...

Heck, who said this would be easy and nobody ever said you would be comfortable with your design. I'm still working on mine, still a bit confused as to best and easiest and expect I will remain this way.  Glad I've a working boat right now for Springers and this is all just foreplay

Woody
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 11:29:33 AM by woody »

Offline Threeweight

Re: Battery Switch Installation
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2012, 07:22:42 PM »
Re batteries... for the record, both are AGM's (the gray one is Cabela's house brand, the blue/gray is an Optima).
Former Sea Chaser 17 owner
Wild Card, Hewescraft Ocean Pro 220, Honda 225 and 9.9

“Never turn your back on fear. It should always be in front of you, like a thing that might have to be killed.”
       --- Hunter S. Thompson

Re: Battery Switch Installation
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2012, 06:56:14 PM »
Hey fellas. I'm 99% finished with my battery and ACR installation.

I just have to figure out how/where to wire in the starter isolation wire to the key switch. I have a newer Yamaha. Ideas??

Here are some photos of my ACR install.  :cha:

FYI - I mounted the switch, ACR, and Safteyhub on pieces of starboard with stainless tee-nuts. I used aluminum rivets to fasten the starboard mounts to the liner. This method worked well for me as it allows you to easily mount/unmount the components for installation and any future maintenance.

I installed the ACR remote LED at the helm so I can see when the batteries are combined during charging. Not sure if this is something you need. I put the LED in a spot out of my normal line of sight. That way I don't have to look at it.

I didn't use any of the suggested fuses on the battery cables. Instead I stacked the cables from the ACR and the batteries on the battery switch. I read that Blue Sea wants you to run the cables directly from the batteries to the ACR so the relay can get the most accurate voltage reading.

Matt
'87 Arima Sea Ranger 17

Seattleflyfisher

  • Guest
Re: Battery Switch Installation
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2012, 07:04:48 PM »
Wow, Matt

Very nice work!


SFF

Offline Croaker Stroker

Re: Battery Switch Installation
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2012, 07:49:06 PM »

Good idea on the mounting! Tri-grip rivits (expands like a molly) would work good to fixture the Starboard to the thin fiberglass liner....

http://www.hansonrivet.com/w36.htm

1987 - 17' Sea Pacer - 2004 Evinrude 90 E-tec
15' Sea Sprinter - **SOLD**

"If a fish will, he will… if he won't, he won't… and that's about it… except… he may take this when he won't take that."

Offline fishorcrab

Re: Battery Switch Installation
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2012, 08:37:40 PM »
TurkeyB,

The same set up came on my SC16  with my Yamaha and I could not understand why the house battery was not getting charged.    The installer at dealer apparently did not read or understand the instructions. 

Discovered that the starting isolation wire was tied to the instrument lights which were on any time the engine was running.  I did not get an answer on the Yamaha wiring harness before the dealer went under so I disconnected that signal at the ACR. This means that during cranking, any alternator output (spikes and all) will go to both batteries rather than just the starting battery.

I leave the radio and chartplotter turned off until the engine is running anyway so I have not worried about it too much.  Your mileage may vary.

However, if you learn which wire represents engine starting but not quite yet, please share the info.

Paul
SC16 Yamaha 4s 90
SP17 Honda 4s 90  - Croaker made me do it. :)

Offline chet

Re: Battery Switch Installation
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2012, 05:30:07 PM »
For the SI wire on the ACR, on the diagram/instructions it has it listed as "optional".  I'm basically at the same stage as Matt/turkey B.  I was going to leave that wire out and not connect it.  Is it necessary?  Why does it say optional?  Do all of you have it hooked up?