Author Topic: Slightly political? I dunno  (Read 755 times)

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Offline wedocq

Slightly political? I dunno
« on: July 15, 2017, 08:39:39 AM »
As the family sits and watches my Mother in law slowly die, I cant help but wonder, why isn't "death with dignity" a more widely accepted option? Why is watching them in pain and struggling to breathe for several days the more accepted route? It seems so counter-intuitive.  :shrug9:
-Shawn
2002 21' Arima Sea Ranger HT  Suzuki DF175 4-stroke.
WEDOCQ= WE DO SEKIU! It pays homage to my Uncle Jay who died of cancer.

Offline StreamFixer

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Re: Slightly political? I dunno
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2017, 08:47:32 AM »
Oregon allows 'Death with Dignity'.  My uncle chose that route...  I agree with the patient and doctor being allowed to make that choice.  Not my place to interfere with their lives.

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Offline Hunter

Re: Slightly political? I dunno
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2017, 10:14:10 AM »
Very sorry to hear that your mom in law and your family is going through this Shawn.   My take on the subject is that as long as any persons decision does not in any way infringe on the rights of another person... then it really should be that persons decision and the government needs to butt out.   They don't even do a decent job of making decisions that do affect other peoples rights.

I guess the important part would be to make your wishes crystal clear while you have the capacity to make an important decision and then legally assign someone you can trust to make the final decision for you if you are unable.....   That and a qualified medical opinion....or two.

 

« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 12:33:02 PM by Hunter »
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Offline wedocq

Re: Slightly political? I dunno
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2017, 11:12:51 AM »
I guess I am not really arguing the legality of it, I am more wondering why it's such a controversial and taboo subject? I hadn't given it much thought before, but being thrust into this position, I have been thinking about it a lot.
2002 21' Arima Sea Ranger HT  Suzuki DF175 4-stroke.
WEDOCQ= WE DO SEKIU! It pays homage to my Uncle Jay who died of cancer.

Offline Marine40

Re: Slightly political? I dunno
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2017, 11:17:42 AM »
I watched my mom take morphine and then over time she was just bones......that is really messed up way to die. I will not go that route, if I have to go get a hotel room in Portland I will.

The drug makers are into this for profit.

my  :twocents:
15' Hunter, 2 each 17' Rangers, 1 each 17 Skip Chaser, 1 each 19' Skip Chaser, 21' Skip Ranger.

Online Croaker Stroker

Re: Slightly political? I dunno
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2017, 12:35:27 PM »
Shawn, I am so sorry you and your family are suffering through this.

I wish I could have kept my Mom in her own home. She wouldn't accept a caregiver in her house. We were afraid she would fall, or not take her meds, or not feed herself. (In the end, that would probably have been the best outcome) We moved her into a "board and care" home and sell her house to pay for it. She lived for eight years after the doctors put her on "hospice". At some point, it becomes all about money. They keep you alive as long as they can. Nursing homes, board and care, hospice...money, money, money. . In the end, we had to threaten law suit. My Mom had a "do not resuscitate" in her medical "directive". They should include force feeding with a turkey blaster down your throat in those directives.

Now, we are trying to help my wife's parents. Her Dad is 91 and has had three brain surgerys in as many years after falling and breaking seven ribs. (WWII vet) He refuses to apply for VA health care because they ask how much money you have/make.  :hoboy:   Her Mom is in late stages of dementia. My wife goes weekly to visit to pay bills, check meds etc.  Of course, like my Mom, they refuse to pay for outside help/care. This time we are not pushing it. What happens, happens.

Marine40, Isn't there a suicide clause in your life insurance policy ? 

« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 01:28:50 PM by Croaker Stroker »
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Offline Markshoreline

Re: Slightly political? I dunno
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2017, 01:19:44 PM »
Shawn
This may not be what you're asking about but physician assisted is legal in Washington.  It is a controversial subject because of people's differing beliefs, just as terminating pregnancies is...
You need to have an open family and a supportive MD and it can work out.
2002 Sea Ranger HT 21, Yamaha 150, Yamaha 9.9

Online Croaker Stroker

Re: Slightly political? I dunno
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2017, 01:38:21 PM »


Before you become unable to make decisions, you need to legally document your wishes.

Everyone seems to procrastinate doing this.
1987 - 17' Sea Pacer - 2004 Evinrude 90 E-tec
15' Sea Sprinter - **SOLD**

"If a fish will, he will… if he won't, he won't… and that's about it… except… he may take this when he won't take that."

Offline wedocq

Re: Slightly political? I dunno
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2017, 02:41:55 PM »
Shawn
This may not be what you're asking about but physician assisted is legal in Washington.  It is a controversial subject because of people's differing beliefs, just as terminating pregnancies is...
You need to have an open family and a supportive MD and it can work out.

Oh wow. For some reason I thought it was only Oregon. You guys are probably right. It's about the money. The longer they keep you alive, the more money they can squeeze out of you. If you do not have a DNR, it's like taking a 1989 Force 120 into the marine shop, they can keep it going, but its gonna cost ya!
2002 21' Arima Sea Ranger HT  Suzuki DF175 4-stroke.
WEDOCQ= WE DO SEKIU! It pays homage to my Uncle Jay who died of cancer.

Offline Markshoreline

Re: Slightly political? I dunno
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2017, 09:40:45 PM »
Yes, there are some profit motives but most of the objections are from folks who think that self directed death- even when there's a terminal condition is wrong and from fear of potential legal action.  From a legislative standpoint it is hard to determine what policy the larger community feels is right and wrong although Oregon and Washington have made their decisions, but it is really up to individuals, families and their doctors to make the call.  As was mentioned earlier, having this conversation before becoming incapacitated  and documenting it is the best approach if you have feelings about it. 
Hospitals are going to have to sustain life unless there is an overt statement of choice preincapacitation and the presence of an assertive family decision maker to advocate for the patient.
Home based care moves the decision out of the hands of the institutional health care community who are liable for wrongful deaths and into the hands of family caregivers who are aware of what the patient desires.  Hospice, whether home or institutionally based eases the transition for people dealing with end of life issues.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 05:46:45 PM by Markshoreline »
2002 Sea Ranger HT 21, Yamaha 150, Yamaha 9.9

Offline Marine40

Re: Slightly political? I dunno
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2017, 06:37:40 AM »
I am in the process of getting a life insurance policy for Karen and I. I wonder how this will square up. No feeding tube for this guy.


Im just sayin!
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 08:40:57 PM by Marine40 »
15' Hunter, 2 each 17' Rangers, 1 each 17 Skip Chaser, 1 each 19' Skip Chaser, 21' Skip Ranger.

Offline BayWolf

Re: Slightly political? I dunno
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2017, 08:19:48 AM »
There is a catch 22 in the system, which is very unfair to those with dementia.(or any brain condition that may alter your cognition)  You must be "of sound mind" when expressing your desires.  If you have been diagnosed with dementia (like early on-set Alzheimers), even though you are still able to make decisions, and your prognoses is certainly terminal, you are not legally able to make the decision about end of life choices. Family cannot make the decision for you.  So, if you feel like a dignified death might be the right choice for you, I recommend drafting the papers before ANY diagnoses might interfere with your right. Also, don't delay getting life insurance. Once diagnosed, forget it, unless you want to pay a huge amount, if you can even find a company that will insure you. Pre-existing conditions rider may very soon be a thing of the past.
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Offline Threeweight

Re: Slightly political? I dunno
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2017, 02:36:07 PM »
As with a lot of other social issues, I think public opinion on death with dignity has shifted a lot (especially in the Western and NE states).

I grew up in South Carolina.  Things are rather different there.

The city of Washington, DC passed a death with dignity law recently, and Congress just moved to block it. There have been similar efforts for years in Congress by politicians from other states to block Oregon's law.

I'm all for religious freedom, but it is frustrating when folks use the government to impose their religious views on others.
Former Sea Chaser 17 owner
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Offline dbhazjack

Re: Slightly political? I dunno
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2017, 04:43:38 PM »
Our bill of rights protects the right to "life" not death. Be careful what you ask for, death with dignity is a short step away from death with "other" agendas....

The question is always who decides? And by the way, isn't all government regulation imposing someone's views, religious or otherwise?


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Offline gar143

Re: Slightly political? I dunno
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2017, 05:47:29 PM »
After having 3 extremely close family members struggle and pass from Cancers (2 with me at their side), it's a short step I accept. Any other prolongation of pain and suffering would have been senseless.
I'm ready to struggle with any following steps as they arise.
And, yes... my wishes are documented and distributed to those I love and trust.
May the holes in your net be no larger than the fish in it.

Offline Markshoreline

Re: Slightly political? I dunno
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2017, 05:50:16 PM »
DB you are correct in your statements, which affirms the need to express in writing your desires ahead of time (like now).  It's great to live in a state that respects individual preferences with regard to end of life decisions.
2002 Sea Ranger HT 21, Yamaha 150, Yamaha 9.9

Offline Threeweight

Re: Slightly political? I dunno
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2017, 06:01:14 PM »
The question is always who decides?

Oregon's law stipulates it can only be used if the person in question requests it, and is: 1) 18 years of age or older, 2) a resident of Oregon, 3) capable of making and communicating health care decisions for him/herself, and 4) diagnosed with a terminal illness that will lead to death within six (6) months. 

I agree that all laws are in essence the government supporting a set of values (ideally, the common values of society).  But in this case, the government telling a terminally ill person that they must continue to suffer agonizing pain for another 6 months before they die because some folks they don't know aren't comfortable with them making their own end-of-life choices seems excessive, IMO.
Former Sea Chaser 17 owner
Wild Card, Hewescraft Ocean Pro 220, Honda 225 and 9.9

“Never turn your back on fear. It should always be in front of you, like a thing that might have to be killed.”
       --- Hunter S. Thompson

Offline Ko Ho

Re: Slightly political? I dunno
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2017, 08:14:13 AM »
So sorry to hear about your mother in law Shawn. Most of the previous comments are correct - death with dignity is allowed in Washington state. The most important step is to establish with a primary care provider who supports the process. He or she has to consult with another physician (usually a specialist) to confirm the condition is terminal, and with a mental health provider (usually a psychiatrist) to confirm the patient is of sound mind and is not being coerced in any way. A prescription for the medication (potent sedatives) is then filled at one of a few select pharmacies that have agreed to participate, and the patient can then take the drugs at home, often in the presence of friends and family. A visiting nurse is usually present to oversee the process. A surprising number of people in Washington state have done this and the response from families has been overwhelmingly positive.
It should be noted that some patients obtain the drugs, and then change their mind and don't take them, and that's perfectly acceptable - there are no negative repercussions. Some people simply appreciate the empowerment of knowing they have a choice, and feeling less powerless.
The Death with Dignity process is not available for people with severe dementia. Having a Living Will is very important, but it spells out your wishes should you become mentally incapacitated, at which point you would not be eligible for the Death with Dignity act.
Best wishes to your mother in law Shawn. I know this is a hard time for your family.

Offline StreamFixer

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Re: Slightly political? I dunno
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2017, 10:01:21 AM »
I appreciate the various view points expressed in this matter and that no one has taken the opportunity to "loudly beat their drum'.

View points have been clearly expressed.  Perhaps the time has come to conclude this thread.  Please do not post further commentary.

Thank you

StreamFixer
 :stooges:
'97 19SC w/ Salt Boss Top
'03 Yamaha 115 EFI
'05 Yamaha T8 Solas 4 blade prop

"By the grace of God we travel upon the rivers and sea..
They, like He, are mightier than me."  Mike Jesperson aka 'Nalu'

Offline wedocq

Re: Slightly political? I dunno
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2017, 08:53:58 AM »
Thanks everyone for expressing their views with respect. It's something that just doesn't happen on social media anymore, and was appreciated. My Mother in law passed away yesterday morning. Her own mother died at age 50 from a rare liver disease. My Mother in law also had this liver disease. She got on an "experimental" drug 25 years ago that has since became the norm for fighting this liver disease. So because of this drug, she got an extra 25 years to spend with her family. So you never know. The experimental drug they want to try on you just might be the ticket to a longer life. Thanks everyone. Please continue to post fishing pics! It's helping pass the time. We were on a 2 week vacation that started in Coeur d'Alene, ID to Turner Mt, to Glacier National Park. We were on our way home to head to the coast for a week of salmon fishing when we got the call. My boys and I have not been out yet, and it could be awhile before we are.  :redface:
-Shawn

 
2002 21' Arima Sea Ranger HT  Suzuki DF175 4-stroke.
WEDOCQ= WE DO SEKIU! It pays homage to my Uncle Jay who died of cancer.

Offline Markshoreline

Re: Slightly political? I dunno
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2017, 11:30:20 AM »
Shawn I'm sorry for the loss of your mother in law and you will be in my thoughts.
2002 Sea Ranger HT 21, Yamaha 150, Yamaha 9.9

Offline Flying Arima

Re: Slightly political? I dunno
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2017, 12:12:54 PM »
Shawn I'm so sorry to hear this news.
James


2015 19ft sea chaser / REEL TYME
2015 yamaha 115

Offline Fishin Machine

Re: Slightly political? I dunno
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2017, 09:13:21 PM »
Shawn, I had to go through the same situation with my father a year ago, he was in a hospice for five days before he passed. I cant say if it was right to make the decision to have his pacemaker turned off and let him go be with god. But he had a stroke, slipped into a comma with no sign of coming back. He signed a DNR and the emergency room would not take him so he was placed in a hospice. 

Yesterday my mother celebrated her 31st anniversary with my stepdad and today place him in a hospice. He's not doing very well.

I'll pray for your family.

FM
DDT
2003 19' Sea Ranger

Offline wedocq

Re: Slightly political? I dunno
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2017, 10:37:06 PM »
FM,
No it's not a pleasant or easy experience. I guess it's one we all must go thru eventually. It's weird, It seems like yesterday when our parents were doing this for their parents, and now here we are starting the process with ours. Our thoughts and prayers are with you.
-Shawn 
2002 21' Arima Sea Ranger HT  Suzuki DF175 4-stroke.
WEDOCQ= WE DO SEKIU! It pays homage to my Uncle Jay who died of cancer.

Offline Diablo

Re: Slightly political? I dunno
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2017, 10:04:35 AM »
Sorry about the loss to you and your family.
'98 19SR  '15 E Tec 115, '10 Honda 8
'88 17SR  '90 Johnson 90, Honda 8, SOLD