Author Topic: Weird Power Surge / Lost of Electronics Power  (Read 1351 times)

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Offline AJFishin

Weird Power Surge / Lost of Electronics Power
« on: June 06, 2017, 12:04:51 PM »
The other day I went out fishing and all of my electronics worked fine. But when I headed back in my fish finder and radio started to act up. What happened was, my finder turned off and so did my radio. I turned them both back on and then my finder would dim and then turn off, but radio did not turn off.
This happen about 3 times in my 15 minute run back in and once in the harbor. Not sure what happened and why this was happening.


Heading out:
I've always had my battery selector switch set on the #1 position for starting and driving.

Fishing grounds:
I've always had my battery selector switch set on the #1 position while fishing and moving around at the fishing grounds.

***Here is what I did differently - Heading in:
This is where I did something different then what I have done in the pass, based on someone telling me I should do this.
Battery selector switch was set on the ALL position for starting and driving back in.
- This is when I started to have my issues.
1st time: Both finder and radio turned off.
2nd time: Finder turned off radio did not.
3rd time: Both finder and radio turned off.
Once in the harbor, I switched it back to the #1 position and the finder turned off radio did not.

Not sure why this would have anything to do with it, but I want to see what some of you might think or suggest it might be.
I did not notice any issues like this since owning the boat AND both batteries are less then 2 years old.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 02:27:31 PM by AJFishin »
'96 Sea Chaser 16 - Yamaha 70HP - 2 smoke

! Go Kings Go !

Offline Rokefin

Re: Weird Power Surge
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2017, 12:42:23 PM »
Not sure though I am very curious, possible bad wire or battery cable connection, weak/bad battery?  I always run my batteries on "all" position but do not know if this is the recommended procedure.

Electrical minds?
Boatless
Gone - 1989 17ft Arima Sea Chaser 2010 115 Yamaha 1995 9.9 Yamaha kicker - Bodega mostly

Online Croaker Stroker

Re: Weird Power Surge
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2017, 12:48:05 PM »

I usually turn off my ignition when moving my battery selector switch. I never run on "both".

I think you may be momentarily cutting power to your devices when you move the switch. When the power is cut, they will usually turn off.
1987 - 17' Sea Pacer - 2004 Evinrude 90 E-tec
15' Sea Sprinter - **SOLD**

"If a fish will, he will… if he won't, he won't… and that's about it… except… he may take this when he won't take that."

Offline AJFishin

Re: Weird Power Surge
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2017, 02:21:45 PM »
Not sure though I am very curious, possible bad wire or battery cable connection, weak/bad battery?  I always run my batteries on "all" position but do not know if this is the recommended procedure.

Electrical minds?

Yes me too and this weekend I'm going to try and figure it out and that is the reason why I'm posting now to see any ideas I should look for while addressing the issue.



I usually turn off my ignition when moving my battery selector switch. I never run on "both".

I think you may be momentarily cutting power to your devices when you move the switch. When the power is cut, they will usually turn off.

Yes and yes. Also this is the first time I ran with the switch in the "ALL/BOTH" position. Might not do that again  :jester:

I did have the engine off when I was at the fishing grounds and before I restarted, I switched from #1 to "ALL/BOTH" batteries and headed in, this is when I had issues.
This would be the first time I switched from "ALL/BOTH" to #1 while under power and I did this while inside the harbor, just in case everything cut out, I wouldn't be far from the docks.

'96 Sea Chaser 16 - Yamaha 70HP - 2 smoke

! Go Kings Go !

Offline Rokefin

Re: Weird Power Surge / Lost of Electronics Power
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2017, 03:18:27 PM »
AJ, I hope I am not muscling in on your thread but we both need to find out the correct 1-2-both battery selections. (May need to read up on old battery threads).

 I have always ran in the "all" position as I never turn my motor off out at sea.....I use 2 deep cycle batteries

Can you switch selections without shutting the motor off?

Boatless
Gone - 1989 17ft Arima Sea Chaser 2010 115 Yamaha 1995 9.9 Yamaha kicker - Bodega mostly

Offline AJFishin

Re: Weird Power Surge / Lost of Electronics Power
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2017, 04:24:27 PM »
Rokefin I agree.
I've read and heard you should have it set in the "ALL" position when running around so that BOTH batteries get charged.
But then I heard/read you should use position #1 for running and everything as the #2 is just a back up.
I also read that you start up your engine in the "ALL" position so your engine gets enough"jump" when starting., then switch to the #1 to drive to your position. Then once at the fishing grounds, you should switch to the #2 position because all of your electronics should be wired into that battery.

So I kind of remember the "run your boat with the selector in the "ALL" position when driving your boat from point A to B", so that is why I did what I did.
Oh so confusing.  :doh:

If there is nothing wrong with the wiring, I think I will just go back to doing everything on the #1 and leaving the #2 for back up. I also carry a battery jumper just in case, which I've had to pull it out to help other boaters dead battery.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 04:28:20 PM by AJFishin »
'96 Sea Chaser 16 - Yamaha 70HP - 2 smoke

! Go Kings Go !

Online Tj805

Re: Weird Power Surge / Lost of Electronics Power
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2017, 07:25:06 PM »
I've always ran my batteries on 1 all day long.
It has always been my understanding that the second batterie is more of a back up.
You can alternate running one the number one batterie for a trip and the number two another trip
So both remain charged
I always leave the newer batterie on the number 2 and as a backup.
2000 sea chaser 19
Honda 130
2014 yamaha f8

Offline beancounter

Re: Weird Power Surge / Lost of Electronics Power
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2017, 07:37:36 PM »
Be sure and check all your connections at the switch and batteries are clean and tight. Basic but often overlooked.

Online Croaker Stroker

Re: Weird Power Surge / Lost of Electronics Power
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2017, 08:29:06 PM »


Another possibility is a switch with corroded contacts.
1987 - 17' Sea Pacer - 2004 Evinrude 90 E-tec
15' Sea Sprinter - **SOLD**

"If a fish will, he will… if he won't, he won't… and that's about it… except… he may take this when he won't take that."

Offline AJFishin

Re: Weird Power Surge / Lost of Electronics Power
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2017, 09:23:47 PM »
Great advice and I'm going to hopefully have some time tomorrow​ to check it out.
'96 Sea Chaser 16 - Yamaha 70HP - 2 smoke

! Go Kings Go !

Offline whale

Re: Weird Power Surge / Lost of Electronics Power
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2017, 09:24:16 PM »
Check the battery voltages. When was the last time you've charged the 2nd battery? Looks like you don't use the 2nd battery much.

My guess would be, 2nd battery was low. When you switched to all, you've created battery 1 to charge battery 2. Causing the voltage drop.
2014 Sea Chaser 17, Yamaha F90, T9.9

Offline Threeweight

Re: Weird Power Surge / Lost of Electronics Power
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2017, 09:42:39 PM »
My money is on what Whale said.

If any corrosion is present, good time to invest in an auto charging relay and an "on, off, combined" switch.  Keep both batteries charged, and keep your house/accessory and engine loads on separate batteries.
Former Sea Chaser 17 owner
Wild Card, Hewescraft Ocean Pro 220, Honda 225 and 9.9

“Never turn your back on fear. It should always be in front of you, like a thing that might have to be killed.”
       --- Hunter S. Thompson

Online DevMah

Re: Weird Power Surge / Lost of Electronics Power
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2017, 10:33:02 PM »
Aj

Can you post a schematic.

Do you have your accessories off one battery and starting on the other?

If so it seems the battery that runs your accessories either has issues or bad connections.

At this point I can only speculative...until I see how your system is wired.

Dev
2015 21' Sea Ranger
2015 Yamaha F150
2013 Mercury 9.9 Bigfoot 4 blade
2012 Lund 1650SS  w 2012 60HP Mercury-Sold

Offline AJFishin

Re: Weird Power Surge / Lost of Electronics Power
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2017, 08:37:45 AM »
Check the battery voltages. When was the last time you've charged the 2nd battery? Looks like you don't use the 2nd battery much.

My guess would be, 2nd battery was low. When you switched to all, you've created battery 1 to charge battery 2. Causing the voltage drop.


This makes sense and I think this was the problem. Battery 1 was on the charger the intire night where I had battery 2 on the charger for only a few hours. I think battery 2 was not fully charged. It also seems to explain why my fish finder was dimming, then turning off.
I can't remember my wiring off the top of my head, but now thinking about it, I think my electronics are coming off of battery 2.
Tonight I will have time to check it out.
Thanks Whale and everyone else.
'96 Sea Chaser 16 - Yamaha 70HP - 2 smoke

! Go Kings Go !

Offline ATGEP

Re: Weird Power Surge / Lost of Electronics Power
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2017, 10:30:39 AM »
The std 1/2 all switch is not an ideal solution for out boats.

IMHO the main should be directly tied to the start battery. Call it batt 1.  If you leave it in pos 1, the house will draw on 1 and 1 will charge with the eng.  The house can drain 1 if allowed.  The only way to charge batt 2 is to combine and run in all.  Again both batts can be drained and no start could be possible. Also starting the main while tied to the house will surge the system and is not  not good for electronics.

Enter the ACR and Blue sea switch.  on/ off and combine.  Meaning both batteries are connected or combined with 1 switch.

Now My start batt (2) only starts the engine.  batt 1 only runs the house. When the engine is charging, it ties batt 1 to 2 and ensures the house stays topped up. I have  had this setup for going on 2 yrs and it is awesome.

Offline AJFishin

Re: Weird Power Surge / Lost of Electronics Power
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2017, 10:00:21 PM »
I checked everything tonight and it looks to be all good. I believe it was what Whale said it could possibly be.

Side note though, since I have some things apart I figured it would be a good time to replace the stock battery switch. I have a new switch that doesn't fit in the original switch hole and I saw how Crackerbox instaled his, see the picture, which looked good

But I have some questions:
What type of screw is to be used to mount it to the side like that?
How hollow is it behind that side "wall"?
How deep should a screw go in?
Any other suggestions on a mounting spot?

'96 Sea Chaser 16 - Yamaha 70HP - 2 smoke

! Go Kings Go !

Offline fishing eagle

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Re: Weird Power Surge / Lost of Electronics Power
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2017, 11:13:28 AM »
I am a little lost as to the reason of your weird power loss. I also can't give you a clear exact answer to the size screws you should use to mount your switch. But I need to give one bit of advic to you and others.

Never change positions of your battery switches while your outboard or kicker engine is running as you may do great damage to the electronics in your engines. There are a few switches designed for such or switching while the engine is operating, but they are special switches and few. Be safe and shut down any and all outboards before changing your battery switch positions. It could get expensive, otherwise.
(Reel Delight) a 2001 Sea Ranger 19, 2003 Honda 90, 2010 Yamaha T8 w/power tilt, Panther T4 steering system, Hummingbird electronics, & Scotty 1116 electric downriggers.
U.S. Navy Veteran, member of U.S. Power Squadron & Past President of Lake George Fishing Alliance (Retired & ready to fish!)

Online Croaker Stroker

Re: Weird Power Surge / Lost of Electronics Power
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2017, 11:21:08 AM »


Yep. Turn everything off. Then switch batteries.
1987 - 17' Sea Pacer - 2004 Evinrude 90 E-tec
15' Sea Sprinter - **SOLD**

"If a fish will, he will… if he won't, he won't… and that's about it… except… he may take this when he won't take that."

Offline ak-angler

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Re: Weird Power Surge / Lost of Electronics Power
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2017, 12:58:48 PM »
Due to the 'make-before-break' configuration of most marine battery selector switches, turning the loads off is typically not necessary when selecting batteries. There may be switches where it's required, so it's probably best to follow this practice if you don't know what type of switch you have. But I don't think this is the issue in this case. I'm inclined to believe that one battery was discharged or has failed, causing a system wide low voltage condition when they are combined.

Form Perko's website:
Quote
Selector switches are designed with a "make before break" feature. This allows switching between the "1", the "all" and the "2" positions while the engine is running. Models with an "Alternator Field Disconnect" feature offer protection for Non-Unitized Alternators should the switch accidentally be turned to the "OFF" position with the engine running.

From Blue Sea's website:
Quote
(REF: m-, e-, and HD-series 4-position switches) Make before break contact design allows switching between battery banks without power interruption
1985 Sea Ranger 17 Skiff Top with 2012 Suzuki DF90A

2007 Cape Cruiser Marinaut 26 with twin 2006 Honda BF90's

Online DevMah

Re: Weird Power Surge / Lost of Electronics Power
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2017, 09:10:32 PM »
The std 1/2 all switch is not an ideal solution for out boats.

IMHO the main should be directly tied to the start battery. Call it batt 1.  If you leave it in pos 1, the house will draw on 1 and 1 will charge with the eng.  The house can drain 1 if allowed.  The only way to charge batt 2 is to combine and run in all.  Again both batts can be drained and no start could be possible. Also starting the main while tied to the house will surge the system and is not  not good for electronics.

IMO
Sorry I beg to differ on this...

The 1/2 all allows you to use either battery to start your main while isolating the other.
Why would you only tie it to battery 1? If battery 1 shorted then combining battery 2 could cause battery 2 draw down.
Combining both batteries is a last ditch Hail Mary start option but also allows you to charge both batteries at once.

Yes having the ACR combine is one of the safest options for charging two batteries with one charge source.


Dev
2015 21' Sea Ranger
2015 Yamaha F150
2013 Mercury 9.9 Bigfoot 4 blade
2012 Lund 1650SS  w 2012 60HP Mercury-Sold

Online DevMah

Re: Weird Power Surge / Lost of Electronics Power
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2017, 09:17:11 PM »
Due to the 'make-before-break' configuration of most marine battery selector switches, turning the loads off is typically not necessary when selecting batteries. There may be switches where it's required, so it's probably best to follow this practice if you don't know what type of switch you have. But I don't think this is the issue in this case. I'm inclined to believe that one battery was discharged or has failed, causing a system wide low voltage condition when they are combined.

Form Perko's website:
Quote
Selector switches are designed with a "make before break" feature. This allows switching between the "1", the "all" and the "2" positions while the engine is running. Models with an "Alternator Field Disconnect" feature offer protection for Non-Unitized Alternators should the switch accidentally be turned to the "OFF" position with the engine running.

From Blue Sea's website:
Quote
(REF: m-, e-, and HD-series 4-position switches) Make before break contact design allows switching between battery banks without power interruption

Correct if you are using a 4 position switch....and 2 good batteries.
However if you have a dead battery and switch between a good battery live you can send a spike damaging your electronics and possibly your charging system.

My :twocents:  better safe than sorry...


Dev
2015 21' Sea Ranger
2015 Yamaha F150
2013 Mercury 9.9 Bigfoot 4 blade
2012 Lund 1650SS  w 2012 60HP Mercury-Sold

Online Croaker Stroker

Re: Weird Power Surge / Lost of Electronics Power
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2017, 09:26:28 PM »
The problem might be a weak or dead battery, bad connection or wiring, etc.etc.etc. ....  but.....

If you switch from battery #1 to battery #2 by turning the rotary knob in the wrong direction, you will cut your power when you bypass the "off" position.

The switch will not "make before break" when turned to "off".

Notice the warning in the lower left...

Just keep it simple and turn things off before switching.  In the heat of the moment, it is easy to make a mistake by turning the switch the wrong way.

« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 09:44:23 PM by Croaker Stroker »
1987 - 17' Sea Pacer - 2004 Evinrude 90 E-tec
15' Sea Sprinter - **SOLD**

"If a fish will, he will… if he won't, he won't… and that's about it… except… he may take this when he won't take that."

Online DevMah

Re: Weird Power Surge / Lost of Electronics Power
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2017, 09:40:24 PM »

Just keep it simple and turn things off before switching.  In the heat of the moment, it is easy to make a mistake by turning the switch the wrong way.


Yup better safe sorry..

Dev
2015 21' Sea Ranger
2015 Yamaha F150
2013 Mercury 9.9 Bigfoot 4 blade
2012 Lund 1650SS  w 2012 60HP Mercury-Sold

Offline AJFishin

Re: Weird Power Surge / Lost of Electronics Power
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2017, 11:34:34 AM »
Thank you for the above advice.

Yes I 99% of the time have everything off prior to switching. This last time was the first time (1%) that I did a switch with everything on, luckily nothing happen, and if something did happen, I know I would have been SOL and probably swimming.  :shark:

After checking my #2 battery, it was low (11.8) and I believe that was the cause of the power loss.

Batter #2 had a good charge (12.9)



I contacted Blue Sea and talked with them regarding the switch so I could have a better understanding.
 
What I was told: (I know some already know this and have said the following, but I figured I post it up.)

- Battery #1 Starting battery and some electronics.

- Battery # 2: Reserve to make sure the engine will start, or to have extra power so you can run bigger loads for longer time period.

- The “ALL/BOTH” switched should only be used in a emergency situation when your starting battery does not have enough “power” to crank over the engine. Using the "ALL/BOTH" position, will help to increase the “power” to hopefully start the engine.
Also I was told, I should not run the boat in the "ALL/BOTH" position as that could drain one of the batteries. (Which I believe was my issue)


I also want to make sure to say thank you all for helping me out, truly appreciated it, and this is why this forum is the best! :beerchug:

« Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 08:30:47 PM by AJFishin »
'96 Sea Chaser 16 - Yamaha 70HP - 2 smoke

! Go Kings Go !

Offline jetdoctor

Re: Weird Power Surge / Lost of Electronics Power
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2017, 08:30:18 PM »
My first guess was that you had switched batteries while the engine was running.  This usually results in blowing one or all of the diodes in the voltage regulator.  Older outboards like you have will do this, and result in degraded, or no charging/voltage fluctuations.  Before you go out again, I would charge the batteries, and check the voltage with the engine running.  It should be between 13.6 and 14.2 volts.  Better safe than sorry :whistle:
Adding an ACR will allow both batteries to charge, eliminating the need to switch batteries.  With the limited output of your engine's charging system, having both batteries charged before you go out is important.  The loads may exceed the output of the alternator if batteries are low.  On my boat, both battery cables were corroded almost all the way through.  This caused some weird problems until they were changed.
Cheers,
Doug