Author Topic: Need some electrical help!  (Read 973 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online DevMah

Re: Need some electrical help!
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2017, 10:05:44 PM »
I am suspecting the Blue Sea switch. I am getting resistance between the terminals on the back of the switch when it is in the "ON" position. I am getting no resistance when it is in the "COMBINE" position. Which coincidently coincides with when the motor would run, and when it wouldn't.

My question is, how much resistance is too much resistance? I had it on the lowest setting and it was giving me anywhere from 175 down to 30 (ohms?). As soon as I switched it to combine, ZERO reading.
-Shawn

I hope you weren't reading resistance with voltage, batteries connected. You check resistance on a dead circuit.

Did you try to start the motor and the starter tried to start it but didn't, then it wouldn't even engage the starter on the next attempt?

I completely pulled the battery switch from the boat, so no voltage. The switch can go to "ON" and "COMBINE". In "ON", I was getting nothing, nada, zilch. No power to anything. When I put the switch to "COMBINE", everything worked like it should.
-Shawn

Confused...
If you pulled the battery switch out then you would not have voltage either way.

If it is still out do a resistance check from common to battery 1 pole and common to battery 2 pole should be almost no resistance.

Dev
2015 21' Sea Ranger
2015 Yamaha F150
2013 Mercury 9.9 Bigfoot 4 blade
2012 Lund 1650SS  w 2012 60HP Mercury-Sold

Offline wedocq

Re: Need some electrical help!
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2017, 10:42:59 PM »
Sorry, I was trying to answer his 2 questions at once.

1) While the switch was still in the boat, I was getting no power when I turned it to "ON". Everything worked fine when I turned it to "COMBINE". Both battery voltages checked out ok.

2) So I removed the battery switch. There are 4 poles on the back, 2 for each battery. When the switch was in the "ON" position, I was showing resistance between the poles for both battery banks. When I put the switch to "COMBINE", I showed no resistance.

Sorry, I know I can be confusing when trying to explain my electrical issues... :doh:

-Shawn
2002 21' Arima Sea Ranger HT  Suzuki DF175 4-stroke.
WEDOCQ= WE DO SEKIU! It pays homage to my Uncle Jay who died of cancer.

Online DevMah

Re: Need some electrical help!
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2017, 11:11:04 PM »
Sorry, I was trying to answer his 2 questions at once.

1) While the switch was still in the boat, I was getting no power when I turned it to "ON". Everything worked fine when I turned it to "COMBINE". Both battery voltages checked out ok.

2) So I removed the battery switch. There are 4 poles on the back, 2 for each battery. When the switch was in the "ON" position, I was showing resistance between the poles for both battery banks. When I put the switch to "COMBINE", I showed no resistance.

Sorry, I know I can be confusing when trying to explain my electrical issues... :doh:

-Shawn

This sounds correct as I believe you have the dual system plus switch

https://www.bluesea.com/products/5511e/e-Series_Dual_Circuit_Plus_Battery_Switch

If you go to this page drop down to the drawing put your mouse over the tab switch on and then switch combine... the drawing will toggle to show you the difference.


Off will open all 4 poles from each other (both #1 poles and both #2 poles) (infinite resistance between poles)

On will connect both #1 poles together  and connect both # 2 poles together, however 1 and 2 are isolated from each other   ( battery 1 is running the engine and #2 is running the accessories) (you will have close to zero ohms across poles 1 and poles 2 but infinite resistance if measured  across #1 pole to # 2)

You are checking the battery voltages this tells you nothing about the battery under load, please have the battery load tested. In my experience I have seen many batteries with good voltage but when load tested they fail as they are unable to substation the voltage under a load.

For a quick check swap battery 1 with 2.... see what happens

IMO
I think you have either bad connections on battery 1 (primary cranking) or a bad battery itself. I doubt the switch.

Usually poles #1 are used for the primary cranking but I have see this this switch wired as poles #2 as primary cranking... just depends who wired it up.

Dev

 
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 11:29:06 PM by DevMah »
2015 21' Sea Ranger
2015 Yamaha F150
2013 Mercury 9.9 Bigfoot 4 blade
2012 Lund 1650SS  w 2012 60HP Mercury-Sold

Offline wedocq

Re: Need some electrical help!
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2017, 11:28:19 PM »
Dev,
So I tested the switch a couple of dozen times. Each time I would move the switch back and forth between positions before retesting it. I was getting varying degrees of resistance each time when measuring both #1 poles and #2 poles. (measuring 1 to 1, and 2 to 2). But, when I moved the switch to COMBINE, the multimeter would read very little resistance between the #1 poles, and the #2 poles. (Measuring 1 to 1, and 2 to 2). This is perfectly normal?  Obviously I am a total novice so don't laugh at me.  :biggrin:

So that's what happened when I measured resistance. When I set it to continuity, a tone is audible when continuity is present. Measuring it exactly how I did with resistance, I would not hear a tone when measuring from 1 to 1, and 2 to 2 when the switch was put to "ON". I would hear the tone when the switch was put to COMBINE.

-Shawn
2002 21' Arima Sea Ranger HT  Suzuki DF175 4-stroke.
WEDOCQ= WE DO SEKIU! It pays homage to my Uncle Jay who died of cancer.

Online DevMah

Re: Need some electrical help!
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2017, 11:38:03 PM »
Thanks Shaun
If that is the case then you have a bad switch sounds like carbon build up inside.... I have not encountered many failed ones... the one's I have seen had the battery polarity reversed between 1 and 2 causing a dead short in the switch. (you may have possibly accidentally shorted out the switch at some time...that would lead to why your ACR fuse was blown...)

The resistance should be relatively the same across poles when connected together as close to zero ohms.

Dev.

 
2015 21' Sea Ranger
2015 Yamaha F150
2013 Mercury 9.9 Bigfoot 4 blade
2012 Lund 1650SS  w 2012 60HP Mercury-Sold

Offline wedocq

Re: Need some electrical help!
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2017, 04:18:13 PM »
Ok thanks. Sorry for some of the confusing posts/answers.  :biggrin: I am going to still have both batteries load tested. They were both new last summer, but you never know! I am going to order new MRBFs, a new Blue Sea battery switch, and clean up all the connections and see what happens.
-Shawn
2002 21' Arima Sea Ranger HT  Suzuki DF175 4-stroke.
WEDOCQ= WE DO SEKIU! It pays homage to my Uncle Jay who died of cancer.

Offline dbhazjack

Re: Need some electrical help!
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2017, 04:31:23 PM »
Sounds like you're on a good track Shawn. Hope that solves it. Sure would be good to determine what blew that fuse. Is it possible to open up the old switch and see if it is damaged?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
2013 17' Sea Chaser, 90 hp Honda, 8 hp Honda Kicker.

Offline wedocq

Re: Need some electrical help!
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2017, 10:26:09 PM »
Good question! I will take a look. I am sure once I open it though, it will never quite seal back up the same.
2002 21' Arima Sea Ranger HT  Suzuki DF175 4-stroke.
WEDOCQ= WE DO SEKIU! It pays homage to my Uncle Jay who died of cancer.

Offline BigMac

Re: Need some electrical help!
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2017, 07:43:06 AM »
Not trying to hijack the thread, but Wedo mentioned he uses a deep cycle battery as a starting battery.  When you smart electronics guys get Wedo's problem fixed, would you please opine on the following:  My main motor is a Suzy 200.  I was told from the get go that I should NOT use a deep cycle as the starting battery but use one specifically for starting that is rated at 1,000 CCA.  This I have done, but this battery runs a bit more than the deep cycle.  Am I wasting money?
Thanks in advance.
(Dave) 

Offline BruceL2_Fish

Re: Need some electrical help!
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2017, 09:22:51 AM »
I also run a starting battery and a deep cycle for the house battery.  My starting battery is dedicated to that one function.   
2012 Sea Ranger 19 (M. LaDeane)
Suzuki 115 Four Stroke
Honda 9.9 Kicker

Offline dbhazjack

Re: Need some electrical help!
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2017, 09:45:39 AM »
I started with a single marine starting battery when the boat was new from Sportcraft. I added a marine deep cycle house battery with the Blue Sea "add a battery" kit which included an ACR.

After my recent electrical issues one thing that was recommended by a local marine electrical specialist is to not have dissimilar batteries. Better to have two marine combination starting/deep cycle. Same type and size.

Would also be nice to not have so many dissimilar opinions


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
2013 17' Sea Chaser, 90 hp Honda, 8 hp Honda Kicker.

Offline wedocq

Re: Need some electrical help!
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2017, 10:41:37 AM »
I was told the same Dave. I have 2 identical deep cycle/ starting batteries that are group 27, and have the CCA rating to start my motor.
2002 21' Arima Sea Ranger HT  Suzuki DF175 4-stroke.
WEDOCQ= WE DO SEKIU! It pays homage to my Uncle Jay who died of cancer.

Offline BruceL2_Fish

Re: Need some electrical help!
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2017, 10:48:25 AM »
Interesting, guess I will look into this when I replace my batteries this year.  Shawn, To bad you are having this issue but I sure learn a lot following these electrical topics on the forum.   Might be worth doing the load test just to eliminate the question.   
2012 Sea Ranger 19 (M. LaDeane)
Suzuki 115 Four Stroke
Honda 9.9 Kicker

Online DevMah

Re: Need some electrical help!
« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2017, 05:40:59 PM »
 Please refer to this post on batteries.

http://www.arimaowners.com/index.php?topic=11745.msg138849#msg138849
 
IMO
Dave to answer your question I doubt that you draw more than 250A.... my 150 Yammy clamp tested draw was about 130A... you can use a deep cycle but read my post #12 for some guidelines.

Yes it is preferred to have identical batteries... however I have used  a dual and deep cycle battery's on my boats with no issue utilizing automatic dual output chargers and ACR'S.

The fear of having two different batteries on one charge source is that one battery could get damaged by manual overcharging.....two wet cell batteries when paralleld act as 1 battery. The starting battery will charge faster than a deep cycle (assuming both were fully discharged).

Staring batteries can be charged quickly where deep cycle batteries like to be charged slower.

Having 2 deep cycles is good if you have heavy accessories and a low charge output from your engine.
Most go the route of a starting and deep cycle combo just due to lower cost.

 :twocents:

Dev
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 11:26:57 PM by DevMah »
2015 21' Sea Ranger
2015 Yamaha F150
2013 Mercury 9.9 Bigfoot 4 blade
2012 Lund 1650SS  w 2012 60HP Mercury-Sold

Offline Markshoreline

Re: Need some electrical help!
« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2017, 09:56:07 PM »
With an Blue Sea ACR once the smaller starting battery is fully charged shouldn't the charging then be devoted to the house battery, regardless of the size?  I have thought that was the whole purpose of the ACR.
2002 Sea Ranger HT 21, Yamaha 150, Yamaha 9.9

Offline BigMac

Re: Need some electrical help!
« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2017, 10:52:06 PM »
Thanks for the input Dev.
(Dave)

Online DevMah

Re: Need some electrical help!
« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2017, 10:57:30 PM »
Mark
From Blue Seas website.
Question
Will the ACR manage my the charge of my individual battery banks.

Answer
An ACR does not direct the charge to the battery that “needs it the most” or has the lowest terminal voltage. If there is a charge present on either battery, indicated by a high enough voltage, the ACR will combine the batteries.


How does an ACR work? (Automatic Charge Relay)

An ACR senses when the voltage of either of the batteries rises to a level indicating that a charge source is active (13.0V for 2 minutes). The ACR′s contacts then connect and the ACR applies the charge to both batteries. If the voltage on both of the batteries subsequently drops to 12.75V for 30 seconds, the ACR will disconnect, isolating the batteries.

Resource
https://www.bluesea.com/resources/1366

To manage your battery charge you will  need a solid state battery combiner.

Digital Duo Charge: DDC-12/24
Multi Bank Charging

    The DDC is a Solid-State Battery Combiner
    Control Voltage and Current between House and Start Batteries
    Eliminates the Need for an Isolator, Relay or Manually Operated Battery Switch
    Used in Concert with Max Charge or ARS-5 Regulators
    Can also be Employed without a Balmar Regulator
    Works in Both 12V and 24V Applications
    House and Start Batteries can be different technologies
    Start Battery Temperature Sensing Available with the MC-TS-B Sensor Cable

http://www.balmar.net/?page_id=15272




The ACR will combine if either battery voltage is above 13.0 v (2 mins) and the battery combiner charges your deep cycle first (once it reached 13.2V) then manages the voltage and current going to the starting battery.

Please keep in mind I have a dual and deep cycle and have had no issues using a ACR and automatic dual output charger.. as most outboards motors don't have high alt outputs, this is more for larger vessels that have massive DC systems

Hope this answers your question.

Please excuse me for the use of the Bold...IMO just makes it easier to understand if you are glancing over quickly.

Dev

« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 05:29:47 PM by DevMah »
2015 21' Sea Ranger
2015 Yamaha F150
2013 Mercury 9.9 Bigfoot 4 blade
2012 Lund 1650SS  w 2012 60HP Mercury-Sold

Offline Markshoreline

Re: Need some electrical help!
« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2017, 10:35:28 AM »
Thanks for the explanation!  Makes it a little more clear.
2002 Sea Ranger HT 21, Yamaha 150, Yamaha 9.9