Author Topic: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!  (Read 1065 times)

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Offline Threeweight

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2017, 04:47:11 PM »
He may on to something with the wiring gauge... 10 gauge is way undersized, IMO.  When I rewired my 17, I went for 6 (overkill, but it was only about $20 more).

Batteries... well... yeah, the series 24 may not have the juice you need for running downriggers all day.  But he's recommending you step up to basically the same battery system I have for cranking a Honda 225 and running electronics on a 22' boat.  Overkill never hurts, but I don't think that is the source of your fried electronics.

I'd still get your engine's charging output tested.
Former Sea Chaser 17 owner
Wild Card, Hewescraft Ocean Pro 220, Honda 225 and 9.9

“Never turn your back on fear. It should always be in front of you, like a thing that might have to be killed.”
       --- Hunter S. Thompson

Offline DevMah

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2017, 06:18:58 PM »
Diablo, I must of mind melded with you. See my last post before I saw yours   :jester: I'll do a search on testing my alts, but wonder if anyone has a quick procedure for that? These are pretty new motors. I keep an eye on my voltmeter and it is steady at 14.5 when trolling with the kicker (Honda BF8 high output alt), and on plane with the 90.

IMO
I am still on the same page with Threeweight with the batteries... I run a ton of electronics on two group 24s and only one is a deep cycle. (I have electric scottys also and a 1.5hp pot puller)

I just confused from the info...if you have undersized wire issue going to the helm then you would get a voltage drop and not see 14.5v at the voltmeter while on your kicker or main.

You are really not running many items as per your post...

"From the aft fuse box there is a 30 amp run up to a cuddy fuse box that serves the HDS Gen 3 GPS/Sonar, Link 8 radio, NMEA 2000 backbone, Trim Tabs, Lights and Horn."

I agree that it seems undersized I would have gone up one to AWG 8 also...
I doubt you run lights,tabs and horn on all the time simultaneously.
Your link 8 has a 7A fuse
Your gen 3 Hds has a 3A fuse

Your draw maybe around 10 to 15A avg...

Based on this info let's do a quick wire calculation 12v @3%vdrop , 15A draw and Approx 20' run gives you AWG 10. The dealer is good for the gauge, however I'm not a fan of soldering wires.. especially splicing in I would have used a bus bar.
IMHO
I still think there maybe Charging condition from one of your sources or something possibly that we have not discussed. (Like the 10 AWG corroded splice... I would clean or pull new wires to the battery...not re solder.)
Double check that all of your connections are clean and not corroded is always the first thing to do.

Dev
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 07:18:17 PM by DevMah »
2015 21' Sea Ranger
2015 Yamaha F150
2013 Mercury 9.9 Bigfoot 4 blade
2012 Lund 1650SS  w 2012 60HP Mercury-Sold

Offline gfakkema

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2017, 07:35:32 PM »
Overkill never hurts, but I don't think that is the source of your fried electronics.

I'd still get your engine's charging output tested.

IMHO
I still think there maybe Charging condition from one of your sources or something possibly that we have not discussed.

^ These. I am beginning to sense a consensus here. I feel like the capacity of the batteries wouldn't "fry" your electronics. An underlying AC component from your charging system(s) could though. If I were you, I would at least check your charging systems for an AC component. It's easy and most importantly, it's free. Replacing batteries and wiring on the other hand...$$$
2001 22' Sea Legend HT w/Alaskan Bulkhead
2006 Suzuki DF250 / 2004 Mercury 9.9

Offline dbhazjack

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2017, 09:29:55 AM »
As great as this forum is, I'm the weak link in that I'm probably not representing things fully and accurately. Much thanks for all the time many of you have spent trying to suggest solutions to "possible" electrical problems on my boat. I only presented a small portion of Brads comments and don't want to misrepresent what he is suggesting. He of course is just throwing some things out there for consideration without yet physically seeing or testing the boat.

I think I said that, "assuming my charging systems test out ok", I'd should be looking at some other things. I still need/want to get my motors tested and will. I was doing some at home test with my Home Depot multimeter and was surprised to get a 26.5 volt AC current reading from the helm circuit when connected to my AC battery charger. Thought I had found the problem! I was even more surprised to get the same reading after I disconnected the charger! Then I got the same reading when I tested my truck battery. After some internet searches came to find out that cheap multimeters that are not true RMS meters do that. So that meter is useless for some of the test that DevMah spec'ed out.

As to the voltage drop with 10 gauge wire issue, I appear to be right on the boarder. The run is more than 10 feet when I add the turns that it makes, closer to 15'. So if you run the formula for VD at 25 to 30' for 15 amps (reasonable considering that I might add some things and I do have a power outlet for charging cell phones etc) 8 gauge is recommended. Also as Brad points out, voltage drop is very hard to read on a dash volt meter as it can be just a millisecond and might not even register. Also, he feels my kicker at trolling RPMs may not be putting out much of a charge. What is probably happening is that it is enough to close the ACR circuit and combine the batteries so that I'm really not getting an accurate "house" battery reading on my voltmeter. I wanted to rewire that run anyway because it is not marine wire and with the discovery of the splice that is corroded. I understand that all of this may have nothing to do with my electronics issue.

Another detail that Brad mentioned is to test my transducer. Since the last two head units lost sonar only, even though the transducer works when plugged into my old HDS gen 2 5" it may be faulty in a number of ways. It is possible that the first problem with the 7" HDS was inherent with that unit and I got a couple of bad radios. Likely? Probably not, but possible.

So, thanks again for the help and suggestions so far, love this forum and the mutual support we get/give. You have given me great info to work through a process of testing. I never liked the philosophy of just keep replacing parts until the symptoms go away. Much prefer moving from simple testing and diagnosing prior to spending a ton of money on stuff that was perfectly good and didn't solve the initial problem.

So, I will test charging systems and transducer before I install new batteries or re-install electronics. But I am going to go ahead and change out the 10 gauge wire. Besides, aren't you guys suppose to help me "spend" my money?  :stirthepot:

Thanks everyone
2012 17' Sea Chaser, 90 hp Honda, 8 hp Honda Kicker.

Offline dbhazjack

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2017, 12:48:29 PM »
Ok, so I got my hands on a "True RMS" digital multimeter and hooked it up to the circuit that the HDS was on. Here are the numbers:

The batteries static are reading 12.5v DC, 0.0v AC

On AC charger - 14.3v DC, 0.000 AC

Kicker
Start up VD - 12.3v DC
Idle               14.6v DC, 0.000 AC
Trolling          14.6v DC, 0.000 AC
3000 RPM      14.7v DC, 0.000 AC

Main Motor
Start up VD - 12.08v DC
Idle               14.4v DC, 0.000 AC
1500 RPM      14.4v DC, 0.000 AC
2000 RPM      14.4v DC, 0.000 AC
2500 RPM      14.5v DC, 0.000 AC
3000 RPM      14.5v DC, 0.000 AC

This was on the muffs in the driveway. Still want to get a pro to check but I'm not seeing any AC current throughout the scales from the batteries at the output to the Lowrance. I understand that the batteries could be filtering random AC but that's a good thing right? And I would expect that a technician would test the motors at the alt?

BUT - can someone explain this.....I was checking other components for VD and when I tested the radio it didn't show any voltage drop, but when I keyed the mic it jumped to 17.4 volts! Why would that be happening? That is the reading from the connectors that fed the HDS head unit and if that is accurate, that would cause problems I would think????

Update: Disregard. I rechecked these readings with another radio and my old tester and on the old tester I get a voltage drop as would be expected. With the true RMS tester I get a spike on both radios when keyed. Might have something to do with the new tester is Bluetooth and is reading RF. I don't know but not a confidence builder in my ability to diagnose any of this sh_t. Going to take the boat to a certified Honda repair center. Thanks for the help.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 04:29:15 PM by dbhazjack »
2012 17' Sea Chaser, 90 hp Honda, 8 hp Honda Kicker.

Online Hydroman

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2017, 07:31:38 PM »
You mentioned you didn't find any AC current,  I hope you meant to say that you didn't measure any AC voltage.  The read current you would have to have had your meter on AMPS not voltage.

Jim

Offline gfakkema

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2017, 12:19:22 PM »
That's strange. RMS is irrelevant when testing DC and shouldn't shouldn't make a difference. RMS is root mean square and is just a way of measuring AC voltage (vs peak to peak). Seems strange that you are getting different readings with different meters. The only thing that I can think of is that the RMS meter that you have is more sensitive and can detect/display the changes faster?  :shrug9:

Does your meter have a min/max function?
2001 22' Sea Legend HT w/Alaskan Bulkhead
2006 Suzuki DF250 / 2004 Mercury 9.9

Offline dbhazjack

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2017, 04:46:31 PM »
Updating this thread for those who are interested. So I'm going through everything, twice or more, checking, testing, thinking, remembering. I've pulled out the old 10 gauge run from the sponson batteries to the cuddy fuse panel (no small task since it was the first thing to go in) and replaced it with 8 gauge. The run I took out measured almost 40 feet combined +&- ! The negative run was spliced into at the stern and butt connected in the middle. The new run is 5 feet shorter since in not running down into the bilge to splice other grounds. So all of that should be an improvement.

I've tested my charging systems as much as I can and have found nothing abnormal. All of the service facilities are busy and can't schedule to help me right now.

But I remembered something today that may be the issue. Please don't get too mad at me, I'm stupid, but I'm dumb :wink: Anyway, my Lenco Trim tabs are pulling power from the cuddy panel since the rocker switches are within a few inches of that panel. (Is this ok? To pull power for the tabs from the same panel that sensitive electronics are on?). Anyway, the tabs spec a 20amp fuse. I can't find any where how many amps the things actually draw. Two calls to Lenco with none back so far. But here's the dumb part. Last year I blew several fuses to the tabs  :facepalm: Yep, happened. The starboard actuator was laboring a bit and I figured it was just needing to be exercised since it doesn't get used as much as the port (kicker side). So I would put another fuse in, and work it, and all would be good.....until another fuse would blow. So I was pulling 20+ amps just for the Lenco's in that moment from that panel through the 10 gauge 40' run :big shock:

So, when I had some time, I pulled the actuator and opened it up. You may remember me posting a thread on that. http://www.arimaowners.com/index.php?topic=12743.msg149164#msg149164 An O ring had been pinched from the factory and it leaked. Everything was corroded. So it was shorting out. Can't believe it worked at all.

So I'm thinking this must of created some serious voltage drop at the forward panel. I would have been running my Lowrance at the time. Funny it didn't shut down. Do you guys think this could have damaged the Lowrance and it showed up now?

As an aside I talked to Lowrance and they assure me that the unit had a bad component and that there is nothing regarding my boat or wiring that would of caused the failure. So the puzzle continues.
2012 17' Sea Chaser, 90 hp Honda, 8 hp Honda Kicker.

Offline DevMah

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2017, 05:14:16 PM »



 or something possibly that we have not discussed. (Like the 10 AWG corroded splice... I would clean or pull new wires to the battery...not re solder.)
Double check that all of your connections are clean and not corroded is always the first thing to do.

Dev

IMO

Yes, if your draw was heavy while your electronics were on this could be possible with your situation... when this type of loading occurs not only do you have voltage drop but it also spikes when the load is switched off. As you found out that your wire size was under adding additional loads can damage sensitive electronics.

The trim tabs can draw high current.... it's hard to tell you the exact current as it is dependent on the variable load (vessel speed, angle of tab....  ).

I have attached the ABYC E11.10 for your load calculation reference.

Either way let's us know if they find something in you charging system.


Dev

« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 10:38:52 PM by DevMah »
2015 21' Sea Ranger
2015 Yamaha F150
2013 Mercury 9.9 Bigfoot 4 blade
2012 Lund 1650SS  w 2012 60HP Mercury-Sold

Offline Rokefin

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2017, 07:34:08 AM »
Wow, great thread to read thru, very informative.......I think for most of us like me have a head ache from all the capacitor diodes ripple millivolts half full wave rectifier ACDC :doh:
I hope you find your issue and please report  back....I would have switched to Garmins :shrug9:
« Last Edit: April 14, 2017, 09:35:11 PM by Rokefin »
1989 17ft Arima Sea Chaser 2010 115 Yamaha 1995 9.9 Yamaha kicker - Bodega mostly

Offline dbhazjack

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried! UPDATE
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2017, 11:27:15 AM »
After many hours of testing, phone calls, head scratching, theorizing, without professional support, (none available), here is what I have found:

1. Both motors are charging at about 14.5 volts and I get no A/C readings at any level, not a millivolt. Even when running both motors at the same time the charging voltage hangs around 14.5 and there is no A/C.

2. The secondary feed to the helm was too small at 10 gauge for the length of run and the amperage draw.

3. The secondary ground wire was spliced and had some corrosion.

3. Perhaps my batteries were a little tired (at least one).

5. I had a bad Lenco Actuator that was corroded and blowing fuses. (Last year)

6. I bought two Scotty 1101 downriggers used when I bought the boat. They worked. After recent testing and noticing a significant voltage drop, I took them in for service and evaluation, and they were both severely corroded in all motor components.

7. And this is good news, Lowrance stood behind their unit, took the responsibility, and replaced it.

Couple of lessons I think I have learned. I was looking for issues that would cause voltage/current spikes. Thinking that or A/C current was frying my sensitive electronics. But they were not really fried, still working for most features. In reality I'm thinking that starving these instruments on a regular basis causes damage. Even though the manufactures claim they are designed to handle low voltage and shut down before any damage occurs, I think there is a weakness in these components that will eventually fail if repeated low voltage events are occurring. I think this is why the manufacturer is willing to replace units rather than go down the road that would suggest the units are subject to failure by something as common as a drop of voltage on a boat sitting in salt water.

Secondly, why oh why did I buy those downriggers??? Seemed like a good deal, they seemed to work ok, but without opening up the semi-sealed compartment that holds all of the electrical components you don't really know what you're getting. Also, if ever a fuse blows, not a good idea to replace it and go back to SNAFU. Really need to examine the equipment on that circuit. (Preaching to myself here). BTW the Scottys never blew a fuse. Although with 10 gauge wire feeding them and 20 amp fuse protection this is not surprising. They do have internal circuit protection at 10 amps and those never tripped, even with stalactites of rust growth.

Finally, I really was meticulous in my boat electrical. Heck, WryGuy Rick complimented me!!! But obviously wiring in this environment is a different animal and needs a lot of special attention. I now have a good multimeter and will be keeping a much closer eye on voltage variants. And maybe, just maybe opening my wallet and paying a pro, maybe......

Just as an aside. I took my downriggers to Sportco Fife. Tom used to do all the downrigger maintenance but that baton has been passed to, I think the young man's name is Curtis. Great guy, jumped right on them. He is replacing the motors and all the other electrical components, circuit breakers, relays, etc. The total charge including labor is $86.39 each. This of course would be cheaper if I was the original owner, but still, beats the cost of new!

Anyway thanks for all the help and encouragement. It's great to not be alone when facing these challenges and this group is the best. I think I'm all payed up for the year on spending money on this boat, now it's time to put some fish in it  :fishing:
2012 17' Sea Chaser, 90 hp Honda, 8 hp Honda Kicker.

Offline wedocq

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2017, 12:54:10 PM »
Wow! Way to be diligent and thorough. I am curious if they asked for proof of purchase, or did you 'fess up right from the start? I have been told that the warranty is for the original owner only, but most people haven't reported problems dropping them off regardless. I am the original owner of my 2, and I have always done everything myself to them because I hate dropping stuff off. But your post has me thinking maybe a professional looksy wouldn't be a bad idea. Only thing is, these are 15 years old, and fat chance of finding any original paperwork. On a side note, in the State of Washington, we are not required to register our purchases to be eligible for warranties. So there's that...Hmmm
-Shawn
2002 21' Arima Sea Ranger HT  Suzuki DF175 4-stroke.
WEDOCQ= WE DO SEKIU! It pays homage to my Uncle Jay who died of cancer.

Offline dbhazjack

Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2017, 01:19:43 PM »
Shawn, I don't know about original paperwork, but they do require that they be registered with Scotty.
http://salmonuniversity.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/SCOTTY-DOWNRIGGER-WARRANTY-SERVICE-AND-REPAIR.pdf

Service is cheap, $10 if original owner, $25 if not. Quick turn around. Well worth it IMO, even though I do my own maintenance too.

Also, the obvious question is why all the corrosion? Maybe the previous owner submerged them and that's why he sold them? Maybe my rinsing method after use? Some things to consider.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
2012 17' Sea Chaser, 90 hp Honda, 8 hp Honda Kicker.

Offline Rokefin

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2017, 03:20:55 PM »
 Maybe my rinsing method after use?

Good question - I rinse my Scotty's thoroughly after use, this would seem common since but maybe not??  Everybody else?
1989 17ft Arima Sea Chaser 2010 115 Yamaha 1995 9.9 Yamaha kicker - Bodega mostly