Author Topic: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!  (Read 1499 times)

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Offline dbhazjack

Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« on: April 03, 2017, 05:18:35 PM »
So over the past 2 years I've gone through 2 Lowrance Link 8 radios and now 3 Lowrance HDS head units. In each case Lowrance evaluated and replaced them on warranty and assured me that this is completely unusual and that their equipment never has these issues but now I'm concerned about my electrical system. The Lowrance techs say that should not be a problem.

The symptoms of my last 2 HDS gen 3 9" touch head units was a complete and instant loss of all sonar functions. The gen 2 7" touch before that was blowing fuses.

The Link 8 radios both had the same symptoms, they continued to work but would randomly switch channels.

So what do you guys think? Have you experienced this?

Here is an overview of my wiring scheme:

I have a start battery for my Honda 90 and Honda 8 kicker. It is isolated from the deep cycle house battery by a Blue Seas ACR. On the house battery I have a Blue Seas fuse box aft that serves 2 Scotty Downriggers, Wash Down pump, TR-1 Gold auto pilot, and the bilge pump. From the aft fuse box there is a 30 amp run up to a cuddy fuse box that serves the HDS Gen 3 GPS/Sonar, Link 8 radio, NMEA 2000 backbone, Trim Tabs, Lights and Horn.

Here is my fishing routine:

Typically I put in, start the main motor for warm up, fire up the electronics, and proceed to the troll location. I then fire up the kicker (electronics on), warm up, set up a troll and then shut down the main outboard. At the end of each troll I retrieve down riggers, kill the kicker, fire the main, and run to the start of the troll. This process I'm doing with the electronics on.

Can this sequence be harming the electronics? Is there some way that I should be protecting them? What do you do?? Or....I'm I just unlucky and should consider Garmin??? :1zhelp:

Thanks in advance for any help,

Dave
2013 17' Sea Chaser, 90 hp Honda, 8 hp Honda Kicker.

Offline Crackerbox

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2017, 05:50:47 PM »
I am no expert, so I went to Brad at Marine Installations.  He does top work, spent lots of time with me going the boat telling me what had to be done and helped me do some things on my own.  He is 15 minutes from the purdy bridge and has a Gig Harbor address.

He is a Lowrance guy too.

Joe

Offline Threeweight

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2017, 06:07:14 PM »
Hmmm... your wiring sounds pretty solid to me, assuming your fuses on the fuse block are sized appropriately to the load they are protecting (check the manuals).  Most electronics call for either a 3 amp or a 5 amp fuse, no larger.  My typical day fishing is the same pattern you do (was on my Arima, still is on the big red beer can).

The blown fuses on the old 7" makes me wonder if your wiring from the head unit to the fuse block, or the fuse block back to the battery, is under size or has a bad connection in it somewhere.  Do your electronics cycle on/off when you start either of your motors?  That would also indicate a voltage drop... when the power comes back it often spikes, and that can be a problem for electronics.

How do you store your electronics when they are not in use?  Are they in a humid area?  Lowrance products are not known for being the most humidity resistant.  But still, my understanding is the HDS quality control is decent.

If you decide to look at other brands, I'd plug Raymarine.  It sounds like you are a guy who would benefit from their customer service.



Former Sea Chaser 17 owner
Wild Card, Hewescraft Ocean Pro 220, Honda 225 and 9.9

“Never turn your back on fear. It should always be in front of you, like a thing that might have to be killed.”
       --- Hunter S. Thompson

Offline Holoholo808

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2017, 06:24:38 PM »
I know it might be really basic but did you run the wire from your starting circuit to the start isolation input on your ACR?

I've seen a couple ACR installs without the wire being connected though my old Hobie Power Skiff had the starting circuit and Garmin running off of the same battery without any issues...
1611 SC Honda BF90D

For easier searching go to Google and type "site:www.arimaowners.com (search term)"

Offline Diablo

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2017, 06:38:43 PM »
I would suspect it is when the motors are running and it is possible one of the charging system is failing. This could cause intermittent voltage spikes. With all the electronics in charging systems I would imagine you could even have an AC component on your system that could damage your electronics. Something to investigate.  :twocents:
Good luck.
'98 19SR  '15 E Tec 115, '10 Honda 8
'88 17SR  '90 Johnson 90, Honda 8, SOLD

Offline dbhazjack

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2017, 06:51:14 PM »
I am no expert, so I went to Brad at Marine Installations.  He does top work, spent lots of time with me going the boat telling me what had to be done and helped me do some things on my own.  He is 15 minutes from the purdy bridge and has a Gig Harbor address.

He is a Lowrance guy too.

Joe

Thanks Joe, I will definitely give Brad a call, he's close!

Hmmm... your wiring sounds pretty solid to me, assuming your fuses on the fuse block are sized appropriately to the load they are protecting (check the manuals).  Most electronics call for either a 3 amp or a 5 amp fuse, no larger.  My typical day fishing is the same pattern you do (was on my Arima, still is on the big red beer can).

The blown fuses on the old 7" makes me wonder if your wiring from the head unit to the fuse block, or the fuse block back to the battery, is under size or has a bad connection in it somewhere.  Do your electronics cycle on/off when you start either of your motors?  That would also indicate a voltage drop... when the power comes back it often spikes, and that can be a problem for electronics.

How do you store your electronics when they are not in use?  Are they in a humid area?  Lowrance products are not known for being the most humidity resistant.  But still, my understanding is the HDS quality control is decent.

If you decide to look at other brands, I'd plug Raymarine.  It sounds like you are a guy who would benefit from their customer service.

3wt, my first electronic package with this boat new and set up as above was an HDS 5 and a Standard Horizon radio. Ran that for a year and a half with no problems.

Fuses have always been as per spec and supplied by the manufacture. No inline installs, everything is fused and labeled at the fuse block.

Never any cycle or visual effect when starting.

Boat is stored in an enclosed insulated garage so shouldn't be any long term moisture issues. Besides, I fish and crab all winter :gone_fishing:

The only thing I haven't replaced is the feed from the aft fuse block that feeds the forward fuse block. This was installed by Sportcraft and I'm pretty sure it is tinned. But I should replace that with a rated run of duplex from Greg's???

I know it might be really basic but did you run the wire from your starting circuit to the start isolation input on your ACR?

I've seen a couple ACR installs without the wire being connected though my old Hobie Power Skiff had the starting circuit and Garmin running off of the same battery without any issues...

I did not run the start isolation on my ACR! If I'm understanding it correctly that forces the ACR into isolation when the key is turned on right? Maybe this is my problem? I guess I was thinking the ACR would switch to isolate the house batt as soon as there was a draw. But maybe that routine spike is affecting my equipment. But also, isn't the real problem usually spikes is voltage, not drops that do damage?

I wonder if one of my motors is producing some voltage variants?

Thanks guys, hopefully will find a resolution. Good thoughts as always.
2013 17' Sea Chaser, 90 hp Honda, 8 hp Honda Kicker.

Offline dbhazjack

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2017, 06:58:15 PM »
I would suspect it is when the motors are running and it is possible one of the charging system is failing. This could cause intermittent voltage spikes. With all the electronics in charging systems I would imagine you could even have an AC component on your system that could damage your electronics. Something to investigate.  :twocents:
Good luck.
Diablo, I must of mind melded with you. See my last post before I saw yours   :jester: I'll do a search on testing my alts, but wonder if anyone has a quick procedure for that? These are pretty new motors. I keep an eye on my voltmeter and it is steady at 14.5 when trolling with the kicker (Honda BF8 high output alt), and on plane with the 90.
2013 17' Sea Chaser, 90 hp Honda, 8 hp Honda Kicker.

Offline gfakkema

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2017, 07:42:28 PM »
Seeing that you've had multiple units go bad, one almost has to infer that the issue is with the system and not the individual electronics. I would get as much diagnostic info as possible like voltage outputs of each alternator (DC and AC), voltage regulator resistances, battery resistances etc. Compare all those values to manufacturer specs and see that everything is as it should be. Once all those check out we could then try to troubleshoot further.
2001 22' Sea Legend HT w/Alaskan Bulkhead
2006 Suzuki DF250 / 2004 Mercury 9.9

Offline Holoholo808

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2017, 08:13:51 PM »

I did not run the start isolation on my ACR! If I'm understanding it correctly that forces the ACR into isolation when the key is turned on right? Maybe this is my problem? I guess I was thinking the ACR would switch to isolate the house batt as soon as there was a draw. But maybe that routine spike is affecting my equipment. But also, isn't the real problem usually spikes is voltage, not drops that do damage?


You're actually getting a voltage drop when the engine is cranking but it won't be visible on the dash gauge as it likely doesn't read fast or accurate enough. The low voltage can damage the electronics as well as any voltage spikes from a faulty alternator/voltage regulator.

You have already identified a couple of suspect components so you can either systematically verify each one or spray and pray and fix them all at once.

Just my two cents but here's what I'd do:

Measure voltage upon startup with more accurate equipment. If voltage is low, connect startup isolation on the ACR.

Measure alternator output while running. Replace voltage regulator if needed (I don't know if this is an issue with Honda 90s).

Measure voltage at the helm, check the wiring feed to helm and verify sizing via the Blue Sea Wizard though I can't see the current draw from your new electronics causing a voltage drop...

Will do more Googling and report back if I think of anything else.

Wyrguy! Help?!?!?!
1611 SC Honda BF90D

For easier searching go to Google and type "site:www.arimaowners.com (search term)"

Offline Holoholo808

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2017, 08:16:46 PM »
Seeing that you've had multiple units go bad, one almost has to infer that the issue is with the system and not the individual electronics. I would get as much diagnostic info as possible like voltage outputs of each alternator (DC and AC), voltage regulator resistances, battery resistances etc. Compare all those values to manufacturer specs and see that everything is as it should be. Once all those check out we could then try to troubleshoot further.

This.... is what happens when I take too long to type a reply :p

What he said!
1611 SC Honda BF90D

For easier searching go to Google and type "site:www.arimaowners.com (search term)"

Offline gfakkema

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2017, 08:33:27 PM »
Seeing that you've had multiple units go bad, one almost has to infer that the issue is with the system and not the individual electronics. I would get as much diagnostic info as possible like voltage outputs of each alternator (DC and AC), voltage regulator resistances, battery resistances etc. Compare all those values to manufacturer specs and see that everything is as it should be. Once all those check out we could then try to troubleshoot further.

This.... is what happens when I take too long to type a reply :p

What he said!

You said it better and gave a more methodic/systematic approach.  :beerchug:
2001 22' Sea Legend HT w/Alaskan Bulkhead
2006 Suzuki DF250 / 2004 Mercury 9.9

Offline Hydroman

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2017, 09:06:06 PM »
You really need to have an oscilloscope to check for an AC wave form in your charging circuit. If you have a good quality digital voltmeter you may try reading the charging circuit voltage with you meter on AC Volts to see any AC voltage is present.  If an AC is present, you diodes are most likely the problem.

JimB
17 Sea Chaser (sold)
21 Skip Tower (sold)
27 Thunder Jet OS

Offline dbhazjack

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2017, 09:34:26 PM »
Wow! My head is spinning :doh: As much as I love DIY, especially the electrical, I think my best bet is going to be contacting Brad over at Marine Installation. Thanks guys. I can handle fuse blocks, load calcs, grounds, and clean connections, but when it comes to oscilloscopes and diodes, I'm way out of my league  :shrug9:
2013 17' Sea Chaser, 90 hp Honda, 8 hp Honda Kicker.

Offline gfakkema

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2017, 09:51:56 PM »
It's not that hard, if you have a digital multimeter and some service manuals. If you don't already have those items, it's hard to justify the cost. I'm not far away in Auburn and have a few spare multimeters if you want to borrow one or want a second pair of eyes on your system.
2001 22' Sea Legend HT w/Alaskan Bulkhead
2006 Suzuki DF250 / 2004 Mercury 9.9

Offline DevMah

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2017, 09:59:27 PM »
IMO
I strongly suspect that one of your charging systems is failing...either over charging or the rectifier diode shorted passing AC.

Disconnect your electronics ...
Run each engine up to full speed with a DC voltmeter on the battery one at time. (12V to 15 V usually I have seen up to 16.5V DC)
To check if you have a ac component simply change your meter selection to ac volts should very low in the millivolt range. (ac ripple)

Dose your 8 hp kicker have a regulator or just rectifier diodes?
If it just has the rectifier diodes then running both engines could have shorted one of the diodes.

If you had a intermittent connection issue then all of your electronics on the same fuse panel would simultaneously be affected. 

Dev
« Last Edit: April 03, 2017, 10:33:30 PM by DevMah »
2015 21' Sea Ranger
2015 Yamaha F150
2013 Mercury 9.9 Bigfoot 4 blade
2012 Lund 1650SS  w 2012 60HP Mercury-Sold

Offline dbhazjack

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2017, 10:42:34 PM »
I do have a digital multimeter, and a service manual for the 90. So here's another thought. I hook the boat to a battery conditioner when it is home and parked. Could it be suspect? I have it connected to the house battery and let the ACR combine both banks. Problem? Test?

Thanks again, great info.
2013 17' Sea Chaser, 90 hp Honda, 8 hp Honda Kicker.

Offline ATGEP

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2017, 05:02:37 AM »
Your need to have someone with an 0-scope look at your power.  DC can hide weird anomalies that a simple meter may not find. Batteries are pretty tolerant to the abuse but electronics can get fussy as you have found out.

Offline Peddler

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2017, 10:11:00 AM »
FWIW, I'll give Brad Heacock of Marine Installations a FULL endorsement.  He made sense of the mess I paid for at another shop, and got everything working/communicating as it should.
Wishin' I was Fishin'

Offline wedocq

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2017, 10:23:15 AM »
Brad is definitely the man! Maybe his situation has changed recently, but this is what I have been told. He works a full time job along with his electronics installation gig. This time of the year it could be a little bit of a wait to get in. So calling sooner would be better!
-Shawn
2002 21' Arima Sea Ranger HT  Suzuki DF175 4-stroke.
WEDOCQ= WE DO SEKIU! It pays homage to my Uncle Jay who died of cancer.

Offline DevMah

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2017, 04:06:09 PM »
Your need to have someone with an 0-scope look at your power.  DC can hide weird anomalies that a simple meter may not find. Batteries are pretty tolerant to the abuse but electronics can get fussy as you have found out.

The ocilliscope will definitely find the problem...however if there is a ac component you will see voltage fluctuations on your dc meter... as the AC wave passes from positive to negative the dc voltage will fluctuate and not be stable as the diodes should filter the positive wave to pass and block the negative wave. Remember your battery voltage is 12.6v and your charging voltage is from 12.6 to 16.5.
If you are staying at 12.6v then you already know you aren't charging, if you are holding a steady RPM and your voltages are jumping all over the place that's the tell tale...

Yes the battery can hide a AC component but only up to its standing voltage, the battery in your charging system acts the same as a capacitor to filter and flatten out the ripple. That's why smaller outboards only have rectifer diodes. This is no different than a half/full wave rectifier with filter (Capacitor).

Here is some info on how to do it with a DVM, they show how to measure the ripple on a dc to dc converter.

http://leddrivertesting.com/testing-types/others/ripple-of-dc-power-supply/

You are looking for the ac ripple above the 12.6v should be in the millivolts and make sure you are not going past 16.5vdc as most marine electronics are rated for 17v max.


Dev

« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 05:40:05 PM by DevMah »
2015 21' Sea Ranger
2015 Yamaha F150
2013 Mercury 9.9 Bigfoot 4 blade
2012 Lund 1650SS  w 2012 60HP Mercury-Sold

Offline DevMah

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2017, 04:11:28 PM »
I do have a digital multimeter, and a service manual for the 90. So here's another thought. I hook the boat to a battery conditioner when it is home and parked. Could it be suspect? I have it connected to the house battery and let the ACR combine both banks. Problem? Test?

Thanks again, great info.

Yes possible that the conditioner is passing AC do you not utilize a battery switch to turn off your loads while charging? Are you using a marine charger?

Dev
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 05:43:26 PM by DevMah »
2015 21' Sea Ranger
2015 Yamaha F150
2013 Mercury 9.9 Bigfoot 4 blade
2012 Lund 1650SS  w 2012 60HP Mercury-Sold

Offline dbhazjack

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2017, 10:37:37 AM »
DevMah, I do have a batt switch that I do turn off when I park/store the boat. But, admittedly, I don't d/c the charger when I work on the boat. I occasionally fire up the Lowrance to load waypoints and routes. I guess I haven't thought about it since the charger is a 3amp tender. The batts are never drained or low so in my mind it is only maintaining them with it's conditioner function mode, (trickle when needed). Obviously I haven't thought about a lot of the above issues. But I am now!!

Thanks guys. I'll post back when and if the gremlin is found and corrected.
2013 17' Sea Chaser, 90 hp Honda, 8 hp Honda Kicker.

Offline DevMah

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2017, 11:33:55 AM »
I think you are on the correct path...

IMO
There is a possibility that the charger is un able to keep the charge voltage sustained and the ripple voltage is increasing while you are using your electronics. (Over its capacity the charger can't drop out)

This is why I recommend marine grade chargers that are automatic.
-they utilize isolation transformers
-better filtering
-Built in over voltage over load protection. (This may be your case as the charger can't cut out once you pass 3A... the higher the draw the larger the ripple produced by the charger)

http://www.promariner.com/en/42026


Dev

« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 11:37:07 AM by DevMah »
2015 21' Sea Ranger
2015 Yamaha F150
2013 Mercury 9.9 Bigfoot 4 blade
2012 Lund 1650SS  w 2012 60HP Mercury-Sold

Offline dbhazjack

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2017, 03:36:43 PM »
I spoke with Brad at Marine Installations, super good guy, willing to spend some time on the phone and schedule some testing when possible. Told him my story and he grilled me for 30 minutes on my boat and electrical setup going piece by piece, manufacturer, amperage draw, typical use, wiring schematics. If you call him, would be good to do your homework prior :doh:

Anyway, he feels that my secondary feed to the helm (which the electronics draw from) is inadequate and that my batteries are also not enough. Currently my helm panel is fed by a 10 gauge run from my secondary fuse box in the stern. He recommends for my draws and distance to bump it to 8 gauge. My batteries are group 24. The starting batt is an Armor Plate 625 CCA and the House batt is an Ever Start (Wally World) 690 CCA, 101 AH @ 1 amp draw (pretty silly designation IMO). Brad is recommending a matched set of Group 27 deep cycles with adequate CCA for my motors.

Assuming my charging systems test out ok, looks like I get to dump $ into a couple upgrades. Has anyone been able to fit group 27 batteries into the starboard sponson of an Arima 17? I know several of you have moved batteries to the cuddy but I'm not ready for that much upgrade.

Also, I did some exploratory surgery today in anticipation of upgrading the 10 gauge run and discovered that the dealer, when wiring the boat originally (I bought it new), tapped into the 10 gauge ground wire near the batteries and spliced in a couple of bilge grounds, soldered them, and wrapped it with electrical tape. Of course it is all copper not tinned marine wire, and of course it is all corroded. Maybe I just found my problem  :facepalm: I wouldn't be surprised to find more surprises as I move up the line to the cuddy.

Is it possible to buy a new boat or a new trailer without their crappy wiring jobs? I would much prefer to screw it up myself. :shrug9:
2013 17' Sea Chaser, 90 hp Honda, 8 hp Honda Kicker.

Offline wedocq

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2017, 04:21:52 PM »
Oh wow, sounds like you are on the right path! I have 2 group 27 batteries in the starboard aft corner, but I have a 21 SR, not sure if that area is the same size as yours. I feel your dealer wiring frustration. I just ripped out all the wiring to my wash down pump and replaced it. None of it was marine wiring, but since it was already routed under everything neatly I have been reluctant to replace it. Well it was giving me quite the voltage drop, so out it came. :shrug9:
-Shawn
2002 21' Arima Sea Ranger HT  Suzuki DF175 4-stroke.
WEDOCQ= WE DO SEKIU! It pays homage to my Uncle Jay who died of cancer.

Offline Threeweight

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2017, 04:47:11 PM »
He may on to something with the wiring gauge... 10 gauge is way undersized, IMO.  When I rewired my 17, I went for 6 (overkill, but it was only about $20 more).

Batteries... well... yeah, the series 24 may not have the juice you need for running downriggers all day.  But he's recommending you step up to basically the same battery system I have for cranking a Honda 225 and running electronics on a 22' boat.  Overkill never hurts, but I don't think that is the source of your fried electronics.

I'd still get your engine's charging output tested.
Former Sea Chaser 17 owner
Wild Card, Hewescraft Ocean Pro 220, Honda 225 and 9.9

“Never turn your back on fear. It should always be in front of you, like a thing that might have to be killed.”
       --- Hunter S. Thompson

Offline DevMah

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2017, 06:18:58 PM »
Diablo, I must of mind melded with you. See my last post before I saw yours   :jester: I'll do a search on testing my alts, but wonder if anyone has a quick procedure for that? These are pretty new motors. I keep an eye on my voltmeter and it is steady at 14.5 when trolling with the kicker (Honda BF8 high output alt), and on plane with the 90.

IMO
I am still on the same page with Threeweight with the batteries... I run a ton of electronics on two group 24s and only one is a deep cycle. (I have electric scottys also and a 1.5hp pot puller)

I just confused from the info...if you have undersized wire issue going to the helm then you would get a voltage drop and not see 14.5v at the voltmeter while on your kicker or main.

You are really not running many items as per your post...

"From the aft fuse box there is a 30 amp run up to a cuddy fuse box that serves the HDS Gen 3 GPS/Sonar, Link 8 radio, NMEA 2000 backbone, Trim Tabs, Lights and Horn."

I agree that it seems undersized I would have gone up one to AWG 8 also...
I doubt you run lights,tabs and horn on all the time simultaneously.
Your link 8 has a 7A fuse
Your gen 3 Hds has a 3A fuse

Your draw maybe around 10 to 15A avg...

Based on this info let's do a quick wire calculation 12v @3%vdrop , 15A draw and Approx 20' run gives you AWG 10. The dealer is good for the gauge, however I'm not a fan of soldering wires.. especially splicing in I would have used a bus bar.
IMHO
I still think there maybe Charging condition from one of your sources or something possibly that we have not discussed. (Like the 10 AWG corroded splice... I would clean or pull new wires to the battery...not re solder.)
Double check that all of your connections are clean and not corroded is always the first thing to do.

Dev
« Last Edit: April 07, 2017, 07:18:17 PM by DevMah »
2015 21' Sea Ranger
2015 Yamaha F150
2013 Mercury 9.9 Bigfoot 4 blade
2012 Lund 1650SS  w 2012 60HP Mercury-Sold

Offline gfakkema

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2017, 07:35:32 PM »
Overkill never hurts, but I don't think that is the source of your fried electronics.

I'd still get your engine's charging output tested.

IMHO
I still think there maybe Charging condition from one of your sources or something possibly that we have not discussed.

^ These. I am beginning to sense a consensus here. I feel like the capacity of the batteries wouldn't "fry" your electronics. An underlying AC component from your charging system(s) could though. If I were you, I would at least check your charging systems for an AC component. It's easy and most importantly, it's free. Replacing batteries and wiring on the other hand...$$$
2001 22' Sea Legend HT w/Alaskan Bulkhead
2006 Suzuki DF250 / 2004 Mercury 9.9

Offline dbhazjack

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2017, 09:29:55 AM »
As great as this forum is, I'm the weak link in that I'm probably not representing things fully and accurately. Much thanks for all the time many of you have spent trying to suggest solutions to "possible" electrical problems on my boat. I only presented a small portion of Brads comments and don't want to misrepresent what he is suggesting. He of course is just throwing some things out there for consideration without yet physically seeing or testing the boat.

I think I said that, "assuming my charging systems test out ok", I'd should be looking at some other things. I still need/want to get my motors tested and will. I was doing some at home test with my Home Depot multimeter and was surprised to get a 26.5 volt AC current reading from the helm circuit when connected to my AC battery charger. Thought I had found the problem! I was even more surprised to get the same reading after I disconnected the charger! Then I got the same reading when I tested my truck battery. After some internet searches came to find out that cheap multimeters that are not true RMS meters do that. So that meter is useless for some of the test that DevMah spec'ed out.

As to the voltage drop with 10 gauge wire issue, I appear to be right on the boarder. The run is more than 10 feet when I add the turns that it makes, closer to 15'. So if you run the formula for VD at 25 to 30' for 15 amps (reasonable considering that I might add some things and I do have a power outlet for charging cell phones etc) 8 gauge is recommended. Also as Brad points out, voltage drop is very hard to read on a dash volt meter as it can be just a millisecond and might not even register. Also, he feels my kicker at trolling RPMs may not be putting out much of a charge. What is probably happening is that it is enough to close the ACR circuit and combine the batteries so that I'm really not getting an accurate "house" battery reading on my voltmeter. I wanted to rewire that run anyway because it is not marine wire and with the discovery of the splice that is corroded. I understand that all of this may have nothing to do with my electronics issue.

Another detail that Brad mentioned is to test my transducer. Since the last two head units lost sonar only, even though the transducer works when plugged into my old HDS gen 2 5" it may be faulty in a number of ways. It is possible that the first problem with the 7" HDS was inherent with that unit and I got a couple of bad radios. Likely? Probably not, but possible.

So, thanks again for the help and suggestions so far, love this forum and the mutual support we get/give. You have given me great info to work through a process of testing. I never liked the philosophy of just keep replacing parts until the symptoms go away. Much prefer moving from simple testing and diagnosing prior to spending a ton of money on stuff that was perfectly good and didn't solve the initial problem.

So, I will test charging systems and transducer before I install new batteries or re-install electronics. But I am going to go ahead and change out the 10 gauge wire. Besides, aren't you guys suppose to help me "spend" my money?  :stirthepot:

Thanks everyone
2013 17' Sea Chaser, 90 hp Honda, 8 hp Honda Kicker.

Offline dbhazjack

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2017, 12:48:29 PM »
Ok, so I got my hands on a "True RMS" digital multimeter and hooked it up to the circuit that the HDS was on. Here are the numbers:

The batteries static are reading 12.5v DC, 0.0v AC

On AC charger - 14.3v DC, 0.000 AC

Kicker
Start up VD - 12.3v DC
Idle               14.6v DC, 0.000 AC
Trolling          14.6v DC, 0.000 AC
3000 RPM      14.7v DC, 0.000 AC

Main Motor
Start up VD - 12.08v DC
Idle               14.4v DC, 0.000 AC
1500 RPM      14.4v DC, 0.000 AC
2000 RPM      14.4v DC, 0.000 AC
2500 RPM      14.5v DC, 0.000 AC
3000 RPM      14.5v DC, 0.000 AC

This was on the muffs in the driveway. Still want to get a pro to check but I'm not seeing any AC current throughout the scales from the batteries at the output to the Lowrance. I understand that the batteries could be filtering random AC but that's a good thing right? And I would expect that a technician would test the motors at the alt?

BUT - can someone explain this.....I was checking other components for VD and when I tested the radio it didn't show any voltage drop, but when I keyed the mic it jumped to 17.4 volts! Why would that be happening? That is the reading from the connectors that fed the HDS head unit and if that is accurate, that would cause problems I would think????

Update: Disregard. I rechecked these readings with another radio and my old tester and on the old tester I get a voltage drop as would be expected. With the true RMS tester I get a spike on both radios when keyed. Might have something to do with the new tester is Bluetooth and is reading RF. I don't know but not a confidence builder in my ability to diagnose any of this sh_t. Going to take the boat to a certified Honda repair center. Thanks for the help.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 04:29:15 PM by dbhazjack »
2013 17' Sea Chaser, 90 hp Honda, 8 hp Honda Kicker.

Offline Hydroman

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2017, 07:31:38 PM »
You mentioned you didn't find any AC current,  I hope you meant to say that you didn't measure any AC voltage.  The read current you would have to have had your meter on AMPS not voltage.

Jim
17 Sea Chaser (sold)
21 Skip Tower (sold)
27 Thunder Jet OS

Offline gfakkema

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2017, 12:19:22 PM »
That's strange. RMS is irrelevant when testing DC and shouldn't shouldn't make a difference. RMS is root mean square and is just a way of measuring AC voltage (vs peak to peak). Seems strange that you are getting different readings with different meters. The only thing that I can think of is that the RMS meter that you have is more sensitive and can detect/display the changes faster?  :shrug9:

Does your meter have a min/max function?
2001 22' Sea Legend HT w/Alaskan Bulkhead
2006 Suzuki DF250 / 2004 Mercury 9.9

Offline dbhazjack

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2017, 04:46:31 PM »
Updating this thread for those who are interested. So I'm going through everything, twice or more, checking, testing, thinking, remembering. I've pulled out the old 10 gauge run from the sponson batteries to the cuddy fuse panel (no small task since it was the first thing to go in) and replaced it with 8 gauge. The run I took out measured almost 40 feet combined +&- ! The negative run was spliced into at the stern and butt connected in the middle. The new run is 5 feet shorter since in not running down into the bilge to splice other grounds. So all of that should be an improvement.

I've tested my charging systems as much as I can and have found nothing abnormal. All of the service facilities are busy and can't schedule to help me right now.

But I remembered something today that may be the issue. Please don't get too mad at me, I'm stupid, but I'm dumb :wink: Anyway, my Lenco Trim tabs are pulling power from the cuddy panel since the rocker switches are within a few inches of that panel. (Is this ok? To pull power for the tabs from the same panel that sensitive electronics are on?). Anyway, the tabs spec a 20amp fuse. I can't find any where how many amps the things actually draw. Two calls to Lenco with none back so far. But here's the dumb part. Last year I blew several fuses to the tabs  :facepalm: Yep, happened. The starboard actuator was laboring a bit and I figured it was just needing to be exercised since it doesn't get used as much as the port (kicker side). So I would put another fuse in, and work it, and all would be good.....until another fuse would blow. So I was pulling 20+ amps just for the Lenco's in that moment from that panel through the 10 gauge 40' run :big shock:

So, when I had some time, I pulled the actuator and opened it up. You may remember me posting a thread on that. http://www.arimaowners.com/index.php?topic=12743.msg149164#msg149164 An O ring had been pinched from the factory and it leaked. Everything was corroded. So it was shorting out. Can't believe it worked at all.

So I'm thinking this must of created some serious voltage drop at the forward panel. I would have been running my Lowrance at the time. Funny it didn't shut down. Do you guys think this could have damaged the Lowrance and it showed up now?

As an aside I talked to Lowrance and they assure me that the unit had a bad component and that there is nothing regarding my boat or wiring that would of caused the failure. So the puzzle continues.
2013 17' Sea Chaser, 90 hp Honda, 8 hp Honda Kicker.

Offline DevMah

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2017, 05:14:16 PM »



 or something possibly that we have not discussed. (Like the 10 AWG corroded splice... I would clean or pull new wires to the battery...not re solder.)
Double check that all of your connections are clean and not corroded is always the first thing to do.

Dev

IMO

Yes, if your draw was heavy while your electronics were on this could be possible with your situation... when this type of loading occurs not only do you have voltage drop but it also spikes when the load is switched off. As you found out that your wire size was under adding additional loads can damage sensitive electronics.

The trim tabs can draw high current.... it's hard to tell you the exact current as it is dependent on the variable load (vessel speed, angle of tab....  ).

I have attached the ABYC E11.10 for your load calculation reference.

Either way let's us know if they find something in you charging system.


Dev

« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 10:38:52 PM by DevMah »
2015 21' Sea Ranger
2015 Yamaha F150
2013 Mercury 9.9 Bigfoot 4 blade
2012 Lund 1650SS  w 2012 60HP Mercury-Sold

Offline Rokefin

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2017, 07:34:08 AM »
Wow, great thread to read thru, very informative.......I think for most of us like me have a head ache from all the capacitor diodes ripple millivolts half full wave rectifier ACDC :doh:
I hope you find your issue and please report  back....I would have switched to Garmins :shrug9:
« Last Edit: April 14, 2017, 09:35:11 PM by Rokefin »
Boatless
Gone - 1989 17ft Arima Sea Chaser 2010 115 Yamaha 1995 9.9 Yamaha kicker - Bodega mostly

Offline dbhazjack

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried! UPDATE
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2017, 11:27:15 AM »
After many hours of testing, phone calls, head scratching, theorizing, without professional support, (none available), here is what I have found:

1. Both motors are charging at about 14.5 volts and I get no A/C readings at any level, not a millivolt. Even when running both motors at the same time the charging voltage hangs around 14.5 and there is no A/C.

2. The secondary feed to the helm was too small at 10 gauge for the length of run and the amperage draw.

3. The secondary ground wire was spliced and had some corrosion.

3. Perhaps my batteries were a little tired (at least one).

5. I had a bad Lenco Actuator that was corroded and blowing fuses. (Last year)

6. I bought two Scotty 1101 downriggers used when I bought the boat. They worked. After recent testing and noticing a significant voltage drop, I took them in for service and evaluation, and they were both severely corroded in all motor components.

7. And this is good news, Lowrance stood behind their unit, took the responsibility, and replaced it.

Couple of lessons I think I have learned. I was looking for issues that would cause voltage/current spikes. Thinking that or A/C current was frying my sensitive electronics. But they were not really fried, still working for most features. In reality I'm thinking that starving these instruments on a regular basis causes damage. Even though the manufactures claim they are designed to handle low voltage and shut down before any damage occurs, I think there is a weakness in these components that will eventually fail if repeated low voltage events are occurring. I think this is why the manufacturer is willing to replace units rather than go down the road that would suggest the units are subject to failure by something as common as a drop of voltage on a boat sitting in salt water.

Secondly, why oh why did I buy those downriggers??? Seemed like a good deal, they seemed to work ok, but without opening up the semi-sealed compartment that holds all of the electrical components you don't really know what you're getting. Also, if ever a fuse blows, not a good idea to replace it and go back to SNAFU. Really need to examine the equipment on that circuit. (Preaching to myself here). BTW the Scottys never blew a fuse. Although with 10 gauge wire feeding them and 20 amp fuse protection this is not surprising. They do have internal circuit protection at 10 amps and those never tripped, even with stalactites of rust growth.

Finally, I really was meticulous in my boat electrical. Heck, WryGuy Rick complimented me!!! But obviously wiring in this environment is a different animal and needs a lot of special attention. I now have a good multimeter and will be keeping a much closer eye on voltage variants. And maybe, just maybe opening my wallet and paying a pro, maybe......

Just as an aside. I took my downriggers to Sportco Fife. Tom used to do all the downrigger maintenance but that baton has been passed to, I think the young man's name is Curtis. Great guy, jumped right on them. He is replacing the motors and all the other electrical components, circuit breakers, relays, etc. The total charge including labor is $86.39 each. This of course would be cheaper if I was the original owner, but still, beats the cost of new!

Anyway thanks for all the help and encouragement. It's great to not be alone when facing these challenges and this group is the best. I think I'm all payed up for the year on spending money on this boat, now it's time to put some fish in it  :fishing:
2013 17' Sea Chaser, 90 hp Honda, 8 hp Honda Kicker.

Offline wedocq

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2017, 12:54:10 PM »
Wow! Way to be diligent and thorough. I am curious if they asked for proof of purchase, or did you 'fess up right from the start? I have been told that the warranty is for the original owner only, but most people haven't reported problems dropping them off regardless. I am the original owner of my 2, and I have always done everything myself to them because I hate dropping stuff off. But your post has me thinking maybe a professional looksy wouldn't be a bad idea. Only thing is, these are 15 years old, and fat chance of finding any original paperwork. On a side note, in the State of Washington, we are not required to register our purchases to be eligible for warranties. So there's that...Hmmm
-Shawn
2002 21' Arima Sea Ranger HT  Suzuki DF175 4-stroke.
WEDOCQ= WE DO SEKIU! It pays homage to my Uncle Jay who died of cancer.

Offline dbhazjack

Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2017, 01:19:43 PM »
Shawn, I don't know about original paperwork, but they do require that they be registered with Scotty.
http://salmonuniversity.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/SCOTTY-DOWNRIGGER-WARRANTY-SERVICE-AND-REPAIR.pdf

Service is cheap, $10 if original owner, $25 if not. Quick turn around. Well worth it IMO, even though I do my own maintenance too.

Also, the obvious question is why all the corrosion? Maybe the previous owner submerged them and that's why he sold them? Maybe my rinsing method after use? Some things to consider.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
2013 17' Sea Chaser, 90 hp Honda, 8 hp Honda Kicker.

Offline Rokefin

Re: Help, My Electronics are getting Fried!
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2017, 03:20:55 PM »
 Maybe my rinsing method after use?

Good question - I rinse my Scotty's thoroughly after use, this would seem common since but maybe not??  Everybody else?
Boatless
Gone - 1989 17ft Arima Sea Chaser 2010 115 Yamaha 1995 9.9 Yamaha kicker - Bodega mostly