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Arima Forum => Tips & Tricks => Topic started by: Croaker Stroker on May 22, 2017, 03:36:45 PM

Title: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Croaker Stroker on May 22, 2017, 03:36:45 PM
 After a couple years of contemplation, I finally got around to ordering some spray rails that I thought would do the job.  The spray rails from Barbour Plastics were much cheaper than the ones from "Smart Rails"  even with a minimum order of 20 feet.  I had Mark at Barbour Plastics cut my 20 foot length into 8 feet pieces so that they could be shipped for a reasonable price. I had originally planned to use 8 foot pieces, but when I finally put them up by the boat after I got them bent, I found that 8 feet caused them to extend to the flat side of the boat where I felt that they might be damaged from banging against a dock or the bait barge.

 I ended up cutting the pieces to 6 feet ( if you cut them to 5 feet, you could do two boats) and after finishing up the ends I mounted them on the boat temporarily.  I still haven't decided exactly how I'm going to attach them to the boat. Right now they're held on with galvanized number eight flat head screws.  I am considering using the galvanized screws rather than stainless steel screws because I feel that the galvanized steel is stronger than the stainless steel. (3 screws per side)

 These rails are much beefier than the smart rails. I don't think this job could be done without heating the rails and pre-bending them.  I clamped the rails together so that they would bend to fit the curve of my hull and I draped a piece of my black canvas over the rails to bake in the 90° weather we're having. Baking under the black canvas they became almost too hot to touch. I'm guessing at least 100°. At this temperature they bent like a wet noodle.

 I am torn between just using 3M 5200 and screws or using plexus adhesive. The plexus MA550 adhesive is very expensive but is permanent and nonreversible.  With the plexus adhesive...removing the rails at a later date will damage the hull.  The 5200 may work just fine,  and can be removed without damaging the hall .

Here are a few pictures of my progress so far.

Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Wiley on May 22, 2017, 04:04:32 PM
Very clean looking in white. Are they a solid material? If so how would they get damaged? Please update after a performance analysis. Cost analysis. Etc. thanks C.S.
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Rokefin on May 22, 2017, 04:04:43 PM
Croaker I was hoping we would hear from you soon on the rail install.

I'm still debating which to buy but am leaning towards the smart rails. I'd feel queasy about using plexus adhesive, what would you use a jack hammer if you needed to replace a rail? Screws and 3M 5200 would work fine if you didn't mind a few holes. I sure do like the price from Barbour.

I'm ordering trim tabs this week so I'll worry about the rails in a couple weeks.
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Markshoreline on May 22, 2017, 04:45:12 PM
Any concerns about drilling holes in your bow
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Croaker Stroker on May 22, 2017, 06:10:49 PM
Croaker I was hoping we would hear from you soon on the rail install.

I'm still debating which to buy but am leaning towards the smart rails. I'd feel queasy about using plexus adhesive, what would you use a jack hammer if you needed to replace a rail? Screws and 3M 5200 would work fine if you didn't mind a few holes. I sure do like the price from Barbour.

I'm ordering trim tabs this week so I'll worry about the rails in a couple weeks.

Don't they use Plexus in little tubes for the Smart Rails ?

Very clean looking in white. Are they a solid material? If so how would they get damaged? Please update after a performance analysis. Cost analysis. Etc. thanks C.S.

I am going to use screws and 3M 5200.  Seriously eriously solid Rigid Material....difficult/impossible to bend without heating.  It's not gonna fall off. 

Any concerns about drilling holes in your bow

No worries. Three tiny holes. Per side. (So far).
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Markshoreline on May 22, 2017, 07:17:14 PM
What if the rails get knocked off, will the holes let in water?  Do smartrails have screws?  Just a little uncomfortable with screw holes through the hull, esp. up front!  However, recent experience has taught me that Arimas don't sink...
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Croaker Stroker on May 22, 2017, 07:44:55 PM

The screws are for fixturing while the adhesive dries.

Keep in mind, the 7/32" holes are above the waterline.
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Salmon King on May 22, 2017, 08:36:37 PM
No...Smart Rails do not use screws....
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Croaker Stroker on May 22, 2017, 08:40:45 PM
No...Smart Rails do not use screws....

These are not "Smart Rails". They are Barbour Plastics Spray rails. Same as Taco Marine spray Rails.
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Threeweight on May 22, 2017, 10:18:54 PM
Looks good.

Disagree on stainless vs. galvanized strength.

Stainless is available in a wide variety of grades and alloys.  They range from cheap soft crap from Home Despot to high end tool steel that can handle 65000 PSI when used in a rifle barrel. 

Go to a hardware store and you will never find high-tensile galvanized fasteners, because the process of galvanizing (dipping the fastener in liquid zinc heated to 850 degrees F) takes the temper out of the steel.  Same reason you can never find galvanized leaf springs.  The zinc coating will also eventually fail in saltwater, and rust will set in.

Whether the difference in strength is relevant in your application is pretty debatable.  For what you are doing, 316 stainless should be plenty strong, and a heck of a lot more corrosion resistant.
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Croaker Stroker on May 22, 2017, 10:55:30 PM
The screw strength is necessary only for holding the molding in place (fixturing) while the glue cures. This molding is Rigid Vinyl. About as easy to bend as a 2x4.  (I am exaggerating slightly)

The harder grades of "stainless steel", like 410 are not really stainless. Even 304 will rust under my neglect. So we are left with 316, which is truly stainless....but soft and low tolerance to torque.

The worst thing that can happen to my project is to break off a screw in the hull, with no access to the inside, and buried under 1-1/2" of Rigid vinyl PVC.

deck screws are very hard. I have yet to twist one off....so this is what I am using. They just happen to be galvanized. That is what I had in my screw cabinet. I was not intending to leave them in. I would have replaced them with 316. However, they seem to have a good galvanized coating. So I am considering using them....or I may replace them with 316 once the adhesive cures.  :shrug9:  haven't decided.

I appreciate your input. You are making me think harder... which I am not use to.
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Croaker Stroker on May 22, 2017, 11:26:11 PM
I'll let it set for a few days. Then I'll take it off, add adhesive, and put it back on. I think I'll only need the three screws, but we'll see.


(http://www.arimaowners.com/gallery/9/6-220517232428.jpeg)
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Markshoreline on May 23, 2017, 05:42:34 AM
How much room for error do you have at the bow roller?  Looks pretty close in the pic...
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Croaker Stroker on May 23, 2017, 10:23:18 AM
How much room for error do you have at the bow roller?  Looks pretty close in the pic...


Haha....you are studying this very closely.  :arms:  good catch !!   I am going to remove the outside rollers. They are an aftermarket accessory that I added. They are really are not necessary.  I wanted the rails as close to the keel as I could. I even get spray from the bow eyebolt....but mostly from water running up the hull and deflecting off the rub rail.

Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Threeweight on May 23, 2017, 01:30:41 PM
My leeriness of galvanized fasteners in boats comes from seeing what they do in campers/travel trailers that never see saltwater.  Great for a few years, then they start to rust, and as it rust it shrinks, which then lets water into the screw hole, which then accelerates the rust and water intrusion.

SAE 316 is a grade rating, not an alloy designation.  There are about half a dozen different alloys of stainless under the generic SAE 316 rating.  316N is the high tensile strength stuff.
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: First Cabin on May 23, 2017, 05:57:35 PM
How about adding the 5200, using the screws to hold it in place for a week and then removing the screws and filling the holes with more 5200?  I don't trust even 316SS in these conditions and at that point the the screws aren't needed anyway.
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Croaker Stroker on May 23, 2017, 07:14:07 PM
How about adding the 5200, using the screws to hold it in place for a week and then removing the screws and filling the holes with more 5200?  I don't trust even 316SS in these conditions and at that point the the screws aren't needed anyway.

Good idea.

Maybe a short length of 3M VHB tape here and there? And a shot of methacrylate adhesive....like "Plexus MA550" on the ends ?

The engineer at Plexus told me their adhesive would not fail....that the PVC Rigid Vinyl rail or the fiberglass hull would fail before the adhesive bond.  (Cost is roughly $85 for a single 380ml 2-part tube)

If I use the Plexus instead of the 5200, I would feel very confident of removing the screws altogether.


Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Markshoreline on May 23, 2017, 09:48:00 PM
DSCS here swears by the spray knocker downers!  He says his 17 gets less spray on the windshield than my 21 because of them. 

I don't have bow whiskers or whatever you call them but I do have an attached hull appliance called a keel guard.  The pro who installed it applied it with 5200 and added a bead of 5200 around the perimeter like around a sink to assure water pressure did not weaken the bond.  Might be a good strategy for your application, too.  His big tip is to use WD40 on a rag to clean and fair the bead.

Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Croaker Stroker on May 23, 2017, 10:43:03 PM

I installed a keel guard on my Sprinter.  WD40 might be a good tip for 5200 clean-up. I use lacquer thinner.

Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Croaker Stroker on May 24, 2017, 07:24:59 PM
A little more progress today. My lovely wife was kind enough to help me, so we got the Rails mounted and bedded with 5200. She is so helpful and willing to get in and help clean up. She put on gloves to protect her newly polished nails, but the lacquer thinner melted her gloves and fingernail polish. Then she stepped on one of the rags with 5200 on it an it got on her Merrill sandal straps. When she tried to clean that off, she stripped the color off.

So, we completed the day with a few beers she got at Costco.   :biggrin:

More pictures coming...stay tuned.
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Markshoreline on May 24, 2017, 07:49:46 PM
So, what did all that cost you???   :jester:
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Croaker Stroker on May 24, 2017, 10:01:28 PM
Spray Rails were $228.18, including Freight.  They come in 20 foot lengths. Mark at Integrety will cut them at no cost.

I wasted 8' because I thought I wanted 8' Rails. But I ended up cutting my Rails back to 6' because I didn't want them extended around to the flat side of the boat where they might hit the dock.

You could do two boats if you had them cut to 5 feet.

I used one tube of 3M 5200 Fast Cure. (Cures in 24 hours, working time 20-30 min.) WestMarine was the cheapest I found at $24.99 per tube. Home Depot crazy pricing was $17 for the toothpaste tube size. The new 5200 comes in aluminum tubes now.

I ended up using 10 (5 per side) -  #8 x 1-1/2" square drive pan head screws at $.49 each

So...  total price....  $258.07. 

Again, you could do two boats for around $150 each.

The only stickler is you have to heat the Spray Rails and pre-bend them to conform to the curves of the Arima.  I was lucky because we had a very hot day, and I came up with the bright idea (pardon the pun) of draping the black canvas over the rail to absorb the heat. You would have to come up with your own method of heating and bending the rail. Maybe someone on the board has some ideas ???

I countersunk the screw heads with a Amana Tool #424000 Face Frame Counterbore/Drill. (It has a nice flat counterbore) And drill stop from Harbor Freight. You have to run the drill slow, so it doesn't get hot and melt the rail material.

Last, but not least, I plugged the square drive in the screws with bee's wax and filled the counter bores with MarineTex. I will sand them flush when they cure.

Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Rokefin on May 25, 2017, 07:41:03 AM
That's getting'er done Croaker! Reads like it is simple but can see it would take some time..

What kind of prep does the hull need?
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Tj805 on May 25, 2017, 08:03:35 AM
That looks really nice and the price is totally within my budget.
I'm intrested to see your on the water test results
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Croaker Stroker on May 25, 2017, 10:37:33 AM
That's getting'er done Croaker! Reads like it is simple but can see it would take some time..

What kind of prep does the hull need?

I penciled around the rail while it was dry mounted and then removed the rail and sanded the hull with a vibrator sander and 100 grit paper. Wiped down boat and rail with lacquer thinner, then denatured alcohol.

I also sanded the rail with 80 grit.

That looks really nice and the price is totally within my budget.
I'm intrested to see your on the water test results

Especially if you split with a buddy.
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Croaker Stroker on May 25, 2017, 10:51:56 AM
http://tacomarine.com/ccp51/media/images/instruction_manuals/Taco-Marine_Installation-Instructions_V21-0874_Spray-Rail.pdf


Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Markshoreline on May 25, 2017, 12:08:46 PM
I'm pretty sure that's much better pricing than the Smart Rails.  And you have followed procedure for a successful install.  I think you're going to love them!
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Croaker Stroker on May 25, 2017, 12:20:20 PM
Buying them directly from the extruder (Barbour) saves $$ in mark-ups and multiple shipment cost.


Remember...****THEY HAVE TO BE HEATED****
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Croaker Stroker on May 26, 2017, 12:43:12 PM
The MarineTex matches the PVC pretty good. MarineTex always requires filling twice....fill,  24 hour cure, sand, re-fill(shrinks), 24 hour cure, re-sand,  polish.

Sorry for the pics. I can't get far enough away to see what it actually looks like.  :shrug9:

Notice the extrusion radius is not perfect.  Tooling ? Shrinkage ?
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Markshoreline on May 26, 2017, 08:57:30 PM
I always blame it on shrinkage.
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Croaker Stroker on May 26, 2017, 09:02:47 PM

Yes. Me too. When I'm cold.
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Markshoreline on May 26, 2017, 09:09:40 PM
Water is the worst.
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Croaker Stroker on May 26, 2017, 10:26:24 PM

🤦🏻‍♀️
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Croaker Stroker on June 01, 2017, 05:35:28 PM
...

(http://www.arimaowners.com/gallery/9/6-010617173355.jpeg)
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Rokefin on June 01, 2017, 07:59:50 PM
Looks great!  Will you drive up north and do mine? I'm low on spare time..
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Markshoreline on June 01, 2017, 10:00:35 PM
Sweet job!  Looks really well done, Croaker. 
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Wiley on June 04, 2017, 11:14:57 AM
Awaiting sea trials and observations  :shrug9:
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Rokefin on June 06, 2017, 08:31:37 AM
Croaker - coffee is getting cold - still waiting for you.

Me too busy
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Croaker Stroker on June 06, 2017, 10:26:16 AM


Sorry, Haven't had a chance to get her out yet.... maybe next week.  I also lost both of my boat Hos....Sam and Danno both got new boats.
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Rokefin on June 07, 2017, 07:24:15 AM
Croaker
After you preset the rails and when you removed them to attach for the final time, did the rails stay formed to the boat or did they want to open back up?

Why did you decide to go with 5 screws?

I was looking over your rail project again - really a clean job!
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Croaker Stroker on June 07, 2017, 11:04:59 AM
They kept their shape, but I still had to force them to fit even after I pre-bent them.

If you notice, our boats have a "compound arch" along the "knuckle"  (Yat, I used your word). I was able to prebend the molding horizontally, but the molding needs to bend vertically at the bow as well. I had to force this bend and hold it down with the screws. (Starting at the stern) Taco Marine recommends screws every 6".

I think it is important to "dry fit" the molding prior to using adhesive. I don't know how you could do that without using screws.

I decided to go with 5 screws because I did not want to see the countersink holes 6" apart. Had I known that the MarineTex would come out looking so nice, I probably would have drilled for more screws.  Also, I talked with a guy at Taco who only used VHB tape and 5200, so I felt the 5200 would stay stuck with, or without screws once it sets up.


Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Croaker Stroker on June 14, 2017, 04:25:17 PM
We went to Dana Point for our anniversary. My wife wanted to take the boat because she wanted to see if the spray rails worked or not. We stayed in the Blue Lantern Inn for the night and got up to launch for the test run. I had Duct Taped my GoPro on the end of a broomstick so I could get a shot of the spray rails deflecting the waves. Off we went for the sea trial...

Anyway, the Spray Rails worked great. We went out a few miles and hit some nice wakes from larger boats....no water spraying over the bow.

Funny my wife was so excited about the spray rails....haha. 

Then, she got really excited when I located this big, friendly, Mola Mola. I think he thought the Arima was another really large Female Mola Mola because he kept circling and winking his eye.   :jester:
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Croaker Stroker on June 14, 2017, 04:57:49 PM
...
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Markshoreline on June 14, 2017, 05:45:34 PM
Great!  They work!
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Croaker Stroker on June 14, 2017, 06:18:13 PM
Great!  They work!


Better than I expected.  :clap:
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Rokefin on June 14, 2017, 09:57:48 PM
Thumbs up - mine should show up tomorrow...

I'll have a set of the Barbour 5 footers for sale when I am done with the project this weekend.
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Tj805 on June 15, 2017, 08:52:15 AM
Glad to hear they actually work
Might have to get a set
Tired of my face getting all wet at 6 In the morning.
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Croaker Stroker on June 15, 2017, 09:19:17 AM
I found this online regarding heating with a torpedo heater.  Some of you guys up North may have them sitting in your garage ??

He is heating/bending PVC window molding....

"Just lay a piece of masonry siding in the duct pipe.
 lay trim flat on the siding and point the heater in one end. Using a meat thermometer through a hole on top
heat until 250degrees or until crust is brown and flaky. have template ready."

(Disregard the crust humorous comment)

I would try 200 degrees first. JIC
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Croaker Stroker on June 15, 2017, 11:15:35 AM
Short Movie...

https://vimeo.com/221781098 (https://vimeo.com/221781098)
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Yachter Yat on June 16, 2017, 05:30:21 AM
   Croaker, great clip.  Love those smiles. What a beautiful day.  Looks like those rails do the trick on those earlier hulls, eh?   I was thinking, if Arima ever makes some modifications to their hulls, it might be smart for them to consider widening that secondary knuckle just a bit more. 

Have fun,  Yat

Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Croaker Stroker on July 01, 2017, 11:11:18 PM

I am really happy with these. I went fishing with Danno today and we did not get wet.

Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Rokefin on July 02, 2017, 11:43:11 AM
Good to hear - mine are installed, finally heading to the coast next week.

I have two 5 foot sections for sale and will post in the "for sale" soon. "Soon" for me varies, but I will try to get it posted soon :wink:
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Croaker Stroker on February 02, 2018, 10:39:04 AM


UPDATE :  The Spray Rails are still attached and working great.  👍🏻
Title: Re: Spray rails --- Barbour plastics
Post by: Fisherdv on February 02, 2018, 10:54:04 AM
👍