I'm looking into trim tabs for my 16SC. Are 9x9's Lenco big enough? I know most people do 9x12 on larger Arimas, and a few have 9x12 on a 16. 9x12 would be my first choice but as you guys know on a 16 the space is very limited. I already anticipated adding tabs when I mounted my transducer (I mounted it twords the center) and may barely have room for 9x12, with 12 being the width. I'm concerned that if I ever get a larger transducer like a total scan, that's 10 in long that it may hit my motor lower end when at full turn being so close to the center. With the 9x9 I would have much more room to work with/add accessories if needed. Anybody run the 9x9's? Are 9x9 enough to hold the nose down in a good wind chop?
http://www.arimaowners.com/index.php?topic=5425.msg60375#msg60375
My ducer now is real close to the motor like yours. I got lucky that even in that location I'm able to hold bottom at WOT. COB, what size are your tabs? Looks like 9in wide?
12' wide 9' deep
The 9 x 12 will be fine on your boat.
J.
The problem I'm seeing is twords the right side of the transom where the tab bracket goes the transom starts to curve up a bit. See picture with the red circle. In order for a 12 inch wide tab bracket to fit flat on the transom, I would run into my transducer pad. If I move the tab bracket more to the right side it won't lay perfectly flat. I thought I moved my transducer enough.
(http://www.arimaowners.com/gallery/10/9220-230118091951-10734466.jpeg)
I use the trim on my motor. My trim tabs are only used to balance the boat side to side. I don't see any reason that 9x9 wouldn't work. That said, I went with the factory recommended 9 x 12.
I do get a bit too much splashing because I mounted them too close to the motor to make room for my transducer.
In ocean swells I would probably only use for listing. I'd mostly use them in the bay and river wind chop. Just not sure if the 9x9 would be enough. I used to have a 17 ft boat with a fin on the motor and it made a big difference in the chop. Even with only 9x9 tabs, that would still be much more surface area than that motor fin :shrug9: The 9x12 would basically take up my whole transom and I'd be very limited in my transducer choices
I have had a couple of boats with the fin. They do come up on plane faster with those. However, they drag a lot. You loose top end.
I am in no hurry to come up on plane.
There is usually a trim pin on the outboard trim mechanism. On my little 50hp Yamaha, I removed it (after the dealer suggesting), and got a little more down trim. All locations are different but, in wind chop, I generally run with my bow trimmed up, not down. Personal preference I guess. :beerchug:
I have Bennett M-80 tabs on my 19 Chaser and they work great. I believe they are 8x10 and gives you more room for your transducer.
Here is a pic of the 9X12 Lenco's on my 17' SC next to a P66 ducer. As you can see it is fairly tight to the sponson and the ducer is closer to the motor than I could wish but really no complaints with either.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180123/f0b7193ba10f54475448c5f66359df9f.jpg)
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Quote from: dbhazjack on January 23, 2018, 01:39:34 PM
Here is a pic of the 9X12 Lenco's on my 17' SC next to a P66 ducer. As you can see it is fairly tight to the sponson and the ducer is closer to the motor than I could wish but really no complaints with either.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180123/f0b7193ba10f54475448c5f66359df9f.jpg)
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I wouldn't be able to mount it that far to the right as my transom looks like it curves where it meets the sponsons more than yours
I have just a whale tail on my 17 ranger
Works fine.
Thought about getting tabs to level the boat but it doesn't really list .
So I figured why bother .
The previous owner said don't take the whale take off .
Said the boat handles a lot better with it.
If it's not broke don't fix it !
IMO, just buy a set of Smart Tabs or the new Bennett tabs that work on the same principle. You won't be able to adjust for side to side list on the fly, but you will get slower planing speeds, better fuel economy, and a better ride.
The 60# resistance Smart Tabs should work for your application (I had them on my 17' Arima), and they are 9.5" wide by 10" long.
The new Bennett tabs in 6"x8" are even smaller, and should work fine (this is their recommended size on up to a 17' boat).
I have electric tabs with trim indicators on the tin can... had Smart Tabs on the Arima. I love my $750 set up on Wild Card, but the $100 Smart Tabs did great for everything I used the Arima for (including regular ocean use 10-30 miles offshore).
I've considered smart tabs also but would really like to be able to retract them. I'd hate to make all those holes for smart tabs and then want to switch to Lencos. (I'm sure the holes wouldn't match up). In your opinion, if I go with the Lenco 9x9 is that enough surface area to be effective on my hull? They would fit very nicely in there. My garage would limit my 2-footitis so I'll probably have this boat for a while
Quote from: Fisherdv on January 23, 2018, 01:50:06 PM
Quote from: dbhazjack on January 23, 2018, 01:39:34 PM
Here is a pic of the 9X12 Lenco's on my 17' SC next to a P66 ducer. As you can see it is fairly tight to the sponson and the ducer is closer to the motor than I could wish but really no complaints with either.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180123/f0b7193ba10f54475448c5f66359df9f.jpg)
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I wouldn't be able to mount it that far to the right as my transom looks like it curves where it meets the sponsons more than yours
Yours is the same. He just ignored the curve and you can't see it here. I'd do the same.
If I go that far to the right, the right side of the tab bracket starts to lift off the transom and has about a 1/16 in gap
Looks pretty much the same to me Fisher. Maybe this is a better angle?
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180124/625126ccf3f09aff0fc81f1b4a5bdce1.jpg)
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It's the flat part where the bracket lays, not the bottom. If you follow under the bracket from left to right, the transom starts to curve twords the sponson. The further to the right I move the bracket, the more it raises up. It's hard to explain I guess. I'll post a picture of what I mean when I get home
Quote from: Fisherdv on January 23, 2018, 04:34:35 PM
It's the flat part where the bracket lays, not the bottom. If you follow under the bracket from left to right, the transom starts to curve twords the sponson. It's hard to explain I guess. I'll post a picture of what I mean when I get home
That is different. Mine is flat across the transom. Perhaps a shim would be possible but you definitely want a nice secure fit since you are drilling into the transom.
One thing to mention when tapping and screwing into gel coat/fiberglass that you probably already know, but I wish I had BEFORE I did any mounting is, after drilling the initial hole appropriate for the size of the screw, use a chamfer bit to relieve the gel coat to the full screw width or you will crack the #%*@ out of it! Why do I know this? :hoboy:
It's the curve here where the transom meets the sponson. The corner vertically, is curved. I have to go about 2 or 3 inches to the left to make the bracket sit flat
(http://www.arimaowners.com/gallery/10/9220-230118164315-107351525.jpeg)
I hear ya on the drilling, that fiberglass has no give. I use a bradpoint bit in reverse first, then drill forward. Seems to work pretty well
Here's some pics of what I'm talking about. Because of the curve on the transom the straight edge, or tab bracket will not lay flat unless moved way over to the left. Look at the ruler at the "10 in area", there is about 1/8 or 1/16 inch gap. My transom has a very gradual curve to it
(http://www.arimaowners.com/gallery/10/9220-230118194522-10738686.jpeg)
(http://www.arimaowners.com/gallery/10/9220-230118194521-107362363.jpeg)
Use the 9x9 tabs, they will work absolutely fine for you! There is no reason why they wouldn't work. Compared to the larger ones you will have to trim a bit more for the same gain but so what!?
Mine does not have a big radius like that. :shrug9:
(http://www.arimaowners.com/gallery/10/6-220917110042.jpeg)
I have had a 17 SR with 9x12 Lenco,s and a 17 SC with 9x9,s. The 9x9,s were a little bit of a dissapointment . I always wished I had gone with the 9x12,s. The 9x9,s just didn,t quite have the range of adjustment the 9x12,s had and left me wishing for a little more. Just my experience. - John
:yeahthat: When I did research on trim tabs I had read both opinions - that the 9x9's worked and were sufficient and I read the 9x9's were insufficient and it was recommended not to use them:shrug9:
I would not take the chance on 9x9's myself only to change later......go with adjustable. Although saying this - I do take 3weights opinions in gold.
Most, or all of the (not very many) reviews of the 9x9's are on 17 ft boats. Mine is a 16, although probably not much of a difference. I agree with 3WT that non-adjustable smart tabs would probably work very well on my boat. I just would really like the adjustable. 9x9 may be my only option that would fit, and still give me some transducer options. If I did go with a 9x12, I would most likely have to shim the outer part of the brackets
I thought I'd ask if any of you that have, or have had tabs on the smaller Arimas is there any problems with cavitation, over heating, or any other motor problems related to the disturbance of water from the tabs being so close to the motor? I read somewhere that the tabs should be at least 10 inches away from the prop rotation area.
No problems at all. They are awesome. I will take a photo.
John
Cool, thanks John
Quote from: Fisherdv on January 23, 2018, 07:48:01 PM
Here's some pics of what I'm talking about. Because of the curve on the transom the straight edge, or tab bracket will not lay flat unless moved way over to the left. Look at the ruler at the "10 in area", there is about 1/8 or 1/16 inch gap. My transom has a very gradual curve to it
(http://www.arimaowners.com/gallery/10/9220-230118194522-10738686.jpeg)
(http://www.arimaowners.com/gallery/10/9220-230118194521-107362363.jpeg)
Fisher, that is a huge radius! Wondering when Defiance changed the mold? Anyone else with a new Arima have this same change on the transom to sponson radius? It seems a little strange as many owners that want to add tabs to their boats that they would redesign this area and reduce the available space that is already tight??
Speaking of which, just a couple of comments on tabs on Arima's. This is a much discussed topic but always good to review for new or would be owners, Like Buddy who is in the process of setting up a brand new 17' Chaser. Most agree that tabs are one of the most important improvements to their Arima. Some have mentioned already in this tread one of the benefits is the side to side trim. This is so important with the addition of kicker motors and accessories that change the balance of the boat, not to mention the live loads we add that are changing all the time, like people! But there are other important reasons for tabs on these boats.
One member named his Arima the "Fat Bottom Girl". The design of our boat makes them very stern heavy. Gas tank, 4 stroke motors, batteries, heavy transom, etc. make them sit low in the water. Trim tabs greatly assist in getting up on plane. You might not think this a big deal, but when you have extra weight in the boat, (which we all eventually do), it is so wonderful to tab down to get her up on plane versus moving weight forward! Also, the ability to "lift" the stern allows the boat to plane at lower speeds. Which comes into play in the next big benefit.
Our boats are such a stable fishing platform (which we love) because they have a wide flat bottom. There is a decent bow angle but if it doesn't come down in contact with the chop, that force hits that flat bottom and transmits immediately to your back (which we don't like so much.) :hoboy: I had a whale tail on my 90 Honda when I first bought it which never was able to lower the bow enough to cut the chop. Man, when I installed the Lencos, what a difference. Now, I'm not talking about 3' and greater "seas" but 1-2' chop and even moving slowly through a little larger stuff they help a bunch.
Finally just a word of experience to those that are setting up new boats. When I first got mine, Instruments were on the top of my to do list. And I couldn't wait to slap a transducer on the stern and immediately start filling my boat with all manner of aquatic life! Within a year I got to Trim Tabs on the list, and of course had to MOVE transducers. So, before drilling that mount for the transducer, assume that you will be installing tabs (because you will) and plan, plan, plan. In fact, thinking about Fisher's current process, if I had that much radius on my sponson/transom and limited room for a transducer I might seriously be thinking about a through hull ducer or perhaps mounting on the sponson.
Anyway, food for thought. No matter what you do, at least fiberglass is pretty easy to fill and repair! Good luck!
Pic of mine.
J.
Thx John, curious does your transom have the same radius or curve as mine does in the pics I posted?
Yes it does. Hopefully you can see the angle in this one.
J.
Dbhazjack, thank you for the detailed post, you nailed it! My reasons for wanting tabs are pretty much everything you said. Believe me, I've read ALL the tab threads. Some may think talking about tabs again is very redundant, but as you stated for us new Arima owners it's VERY helpful to us. It's not easy to drill 18-20 holes in a brand new boat transom without being absolutely informed on what your trying to accomplish. I like to measure 10 times, and cut once. Incase you guys haven't noticed, I'm VERY picky about my boat. As you can see in the pictures, and as you said I did plan ahead for tabs when I mounted my transducer. A 12inch wide tab would probably fit, but I would be giving up my whole transom to do it with that radius I have. I spoke to Jim at Lenco marine and he assured me that 9x9 would work fine on my size boat. 9x9 may be the better option in my case. He also said he had a customer with a 20 ft Proline boat (those boats are heavy) that had limited transom space put 9x9's on his boat and was very satisfied with the performance of them. Thank you guys very much for your help :yeahthat:
Quote from: J Chaser on January 24, 2018, 02:26:24 PM
Yes it does. Hopefully you can see the angle in this one.
J.
John, did you have any problems with the right side of the brackets laying completely flat against the transom with that curve? Thx
Nope, there was enough flat area before the curve. If you are worried, just go for the 9 x 9. I'm sure they will work fine.
John
Hmmmm, I hate these decisions! Maybe I can purchase both the 9x9 and the 9x12 to actually see in hand what I'm working with. Just have to order from Amazon or similar that has a good refund policy
You worry more than I do, and I thought I worried more than anyone :smile1:
Got mine through Amazon (Canada).
John
Glad I'm not the only one! :biggrin: :jester:
Quote from: Fisherdv on January 24, 2018, 03:00:11 PM
Hmmmm, I hate these decisions! Maybe I can purchase both the 9x9 and the 9x12 to actually see in hand what I'm working with. Just have to order from Amazon or similar that has a good refund policy
Great idea! I'm pretty sure that the 12" tabs would fit and suck up tight looking at Chaser's boat but why not order both and return what you don't use? Being careful, taking your time, asking questions, and being sure before drilling and cutting IS the smart path Fisher! As everyone that has taken the wrong path has discovered! Which doesn't included anyone on this forum :beerchug:
What is that old cowboy proverb? Good judgement comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgment :doh:
There is a specific size drill bit for a specific screw in fiberglass. If the hole is too small, the screws will break off.
Thx Croaker, your right, fiberglass has NO give to it
With all this talk about tabs I just measured mine.8 inches wide and 9 deep.Not sure of the brand.They bury the nose of my 19 in the chop.They came on the boat when I bought it new.The 9x9 should work great on a 16.
Good to know Omega, thank you
Just looked mine up Bennett M80.13 years and no problems.
I have the M-80 as well they claim I think 30% more efficient due to the batwing design. They work great on a 19. Only one I considered for the small size.
Quote from: dbhazjack on January 24, 2018, 03:28:49 PM
Quote from: Fisherdv on January 24, 2018, 03:00:11 PM
Hmmmm, I hate these decisions! Maybe I can purchase both the 9x9 and the 9x12 to actually see in hand what I'm working with. Just have to order from Amazon or similar that has a good refund policy
Great idea! I'm pretty sure that the 12" tabs would fit and suck up tight looking at Chaser's boat but why not order both and return what you don't use? Being careful, taking your time, asking questions, and being sure before drilling and cutting IS the smart path Fisher! As everyone that has taken the wrong path has discovered! Which doesn't included anyone on this forum :beerchug:
What is that old cowboy proverb? Good judgement comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgment :doh:
Ok, got both the 9x9, and the 9Lx12W Lencos. Looks like either will fit. I will probably do the install next weekend. So, let the voting begin, should I use the 9x9 or the 9Lx12W on my 16 SC?
Go big. I love mine.
J.
On my 17 chaser I installed 9x9 smarties. Lencoes from Amazon. The boat is powered by a 90 Tohatsu tldi. Previous owner had a whale tale on it. The tabs made all the difference in the world. Much softer ride, quicker to plane at slower speeds, and able to stay on plane in rough water. I did set the tension one hole stronger on the side that the kicker is on. Would never go back to a whale tail.Just my :twocents:
Quote from: fishmiester on January 29, 2018, 03:34:28 PM
On my 17 chaser I installed 9x9 smarties. Lencoes from Amazon. The boat is powered by a 90 Tohatsu tldi. Previous owner had a whale tale on it. The tabs made all the difference in the world. Much softer ride, quicker to plane at slower speeds, and able to stay on plane in rough water. I did set the tension one hole stronger on the side that the kicker is on. Would never go back to a whale tail.Just my :twocents:
Do you mean smart tabs? Those are made by Nauticus
Ooops my bad. Your absolutely right. They are Nauticus. :doh: I looked at both. I do like the way they work. I would liked to have controlable tabs, but just didn't have the extra$$. Next big upgrade will probably be Hyd. steering. Guess I am guilty of "fake news"
I think I'm going to go with the 9Lx12W Lencos. If I run into transducer space issues I could always shoot the ducer through the hull, although I should have the room as is, but not by much. I hope the ducer reads bottom ok at speed, as the tab and the ducer will only be about an inch or two apart. I don't have a kicker motor yet, bet probably will in the future and I think the larger 9x12 tabs will have a better lift to deflection ratio than the 9x9's. :twocents:
My transducer is fine at speed.
J.
Thx J., from the pics you posted it looks like we have the same transducer. I'm able to read bottom at WOT now. When you fully deploy your tabs does your boat submarine the bow?
Oh yeah, you need to be careful with them. I usually set them at about 1/2 for a great hole shot, and feather from there.
They virtually eliminate porpoising, which used to drive me nuts.
J.
I figured with a 9x12 we'd only be using very little, to half deployment
J; I don't have trim tabs and I've never experience porpoising with my 16 SC. Maybe a weight distribution thing? :shrug9:
Yat
I get some porpoising with mine unless trim is tucked. I had a 17ft Bayliner that porpoises real bad with out the whale tail on it. That was another one that was short, and fat, with a heavy rear end :whistle:
Porpoising was bad on mine. Could be the 2 batteries, fuel tank, 4 stroke and kicker?
J.
Fisherdv, do you have a bait tank?
If you don't have one, you might want to also consider you might get one in the future and where the pick up will be placed, if you're going to run 12" tabs.
Just another thought before you get everything set up.
Quote from: AJFishin on January 31, 2018, 04:24:39 PM
Fisherdv, do you have a bait tank?
If you don't have one, you might want to also consider you might get one in the future and where the pick up will be placed, if you're going to run 12" tabs.
Just another thought before you get everything set up.
I did think about that. I would probably have enough room on the port side, between the tab and the drain plug. Is that where you put yours? If you happen to have a pic of where you put yours that would be great. I know you've been considering tabs also for a while. I will definitely let you know how I like them :beerchug:
Quote from: Fisherdv on January 31, 2018, 04:34:04 PM
Quote from: AJFishin on January 31, 2018, 04:24:39 PM
Fisherdv, do you have a bait tank?
If you don't have one, you might want to also consider you might get one in the future and where the pick up will be placed, if you're going to run 12" tabs.
Just another thought before you get everything set up.
I did think about that. I would probably have enough room on the port side, between the tab and the drain plug. Is that where you put yours? If you happen to have a pic of where you put yours that would be great. I know you've been considering tabs also for a while. I will definitely let you know how I like them :beerchug:
Here's where my pump is located, but as you can see it's a transom mounted pump next to my aircraft carrier of a transducer. :facepalm:
If I was to get the tabs, I would do a thur hull with the pump on the inside.
(https://i.imgur.com/qs6h1Ou.jpg)
If you did decide to add tabs you could move the ducer just to the right of the drain plug and move your pump like you said. I use a cooler that I rigged with an air pump for now for bait. Not the best, but it works
Here's a couple pics of the 9x12, and the 9x9 Lenco trim tabs for comparison. Top pic is 9x12, bottom pic is of the 9x9. If I can ever make up my mind on which ones I want to use :doh: I'll be returning the other ones. Im leaning towards the 9x12 because of the lift to drag ratio. The 9x12 wouldn't have to be deployed as far down as the 9x9 to create lift and thus should create less "drag" than the 9x9 deployed more. :shrug9:
(http://www.arimaowners.com/gallery/10/9220-110218130126-108292461.jpeg)
(http://www.arimaowners.com/gallery/10/9220-110218130126-1082944.jpeg)
My vote is 9 x 12. That is what I have as well.
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I agree! As long as they can sit flat and not be interrupted by that radius in the hull.
Yat
They will sit flat. There's just barely enough room
I say go big with the 12's, they seem to fit just right.
If you get a bait tank later on, I think a thru-hull like Croaker and some others have is a nice way to go.
Yes, I agree with you guys. I will go with the 9x12's. Just gotta find the time to put them on. Most free weekends I'd rather be out fishing than working in the garage :gone_fishing: I already have everything I need, 5200, hole saw for LED switch etc.
For those who may be considering the Lenco LED switch they now have an intergrated, all in one switch. No more separate control box for the switch, it's built in
Fisher; I don't seem to need tabs on my rig. Although I never got them, years ago I thought of getting a set. While I was contemplating how I would do the installation, I came up with an idea. If I remember correctly, the tabs should sit 1/8" above the bottom of the boat. What I was planning on doing is taking something like a 1X10 board (maybe a foot or so long) and tacking a narrow 1/8" thick strip of wood to the outer edge of it. Then I was going to hold the board against the bottom of the boat with a jack. While the board would be against the bottom, the 1/8" strip would be back, and out beyond the bottom. Working alone would allow me to easily rest the tab plate on that 1/8" strip and mark it. I felt it would also insure the tabs were dead parallel with the bottom.
Yat
That's a good idea Yat, I'll give that a try. Lenco instructions say 3/8 from bottom so water can flow past when raised all the way up. I mostly fish the bay and the river/delta. In the summer months there's a lot of wind chop making for some very long rides in at 8 mph or less. Weight is not my main concern as I run pretty light most of the time. When I do fish the ocean the small spread out rollers make the boat porpoise. (Think short and fat). So my main reason for the tabs is to keep on plane at a slower speed and to be able to cut through that wind chop more comfortably. Also to help with the porpoising I mentioned. I've read numerous threads on all the different forums about this and almost all say once they have had a boat with tabs they would never own a boat without them. Arimas especially as well as all types of boats.
I should also say that in the bay when the wind picks up and you have a 10-15 mile ride in being able to stay on plane and not crawl along at trolling speeds is almost essential. The faster you can get in the better. The chop could start out at 1-2 feet and within a very short time become 4-5 feet. :bigshock: I want to be able to get in as soon as possible and not have to wear a back belt. Some would probably say I got the wrong boat for those conditions but I've been wanting this little Arima for years and I'm very happy with it. If the trim tabs will make a noticeable difference I'm all for it
I run 8x10 Bennett on my 17 and they work just fine. I'll never again own an Arima without trim tabs. Adding them is like getting a new boat.
When the water get's rough, deploy the tabs, push the front down and plow home comfortably. Usually out in the salt, it isn't how fast you can go, but how slow you can stay on plane that is important. Many days I'm coming in about 12mph.
If you've never had tabs on your boat, you don't know what your missing. Of course if you boat on a lake, they probably aren't needed. But even then, it sure is nice to be able to balance the load with the touch of a button.
Fisherdv you have a PM
Trim tabs are done. I ended up going with the 9x12 tabs. Other members have this same size and say they work great. I also took into consideration that when the water is rough I want to be able to stay on plane as slow of a speed as possible. I feel the 9x12 size will have the most lift at those slower speeds vs the 9x9. Install went well, just a bit time consuming. I also used the LED switch. I decided to just run the wires over the top of the transom vs drilling the holes. They would end up in the splash well either way so I didn't think it was necessary to drill more holes. Thank you guys for all the advice. Hope I made the right choice
(http://www.arimaowners.com/gallery/10/9220-180218183712-10870851.jpeg)
Looks good. Very nice install. :applause:
Now you are probably going to want an in-hull transducer. My Humminbird came with instructions for my transom mount transducer which explained how to glue it in-hull (not thru-hull).
I have never tried this, but others have done it and seem happy with the results.
Seems like there would be some signal loss, but I guess it is not noticeable. :shrug9:
My transducer is still on the transom just to the left of the starboard tab. Hard to see in that pic because of the prop blade.
yes, nice job. I look forward to getting a report or two on performance. Sure there will be a learning curve. Congrats.
Fisher; Good job..........looks neat. I like those Lencos. I'd bet a lot less work to install than hydros.
Yat
Looks great, nice and even placement on them.:clap: I think you're going to be really happy with them, especially on those choppy SF bay days.
Looks good!
John
Thanks guys, I'll start another thread on the performance review