Repower knowledge base

[Tom C]

Yes, the current F90 weighs 359 pounds, and it's a great motor too. They are both so easy to rig.

[HalfCaff]

Yes, the current F90 weighs 359 pounds, and it's a great motor too. They are both so easy to rig.

Yes, if I decide to forgo power for the weight gain, I would be likely looking at Yamaha only (F70).

If going to 90, I would compare all of the brands both on specs and obviously price would come into it too.  I'm reasonably confident in my ability to integrate the electronics/controls aspect, though obviously some are probably easier than others.  The actual mounting I could probably do too, but I don't have a hoist and am more likely to have a pro do that piece, just for peace of mind.

Part of me really is tempted by the lower weight F70 - but I guess most would consider that underpowered.  Not that I am intending to sell anytime soon, but I would consider that perception (true or not) on the resale value.  And I guess a slightly lower output alternator as well, not that I have a tonne of electronics I am running.  My downriggers would be the highest draw.

[HalfCaff]

In any regard, it seems I may have slightly derailed my own thread by focusing in on the minutae of my specific situation, when the original intent was to be a broadly applicable resource for all.  Apologies.

To get back to lessons learned that anyone looking to repower could benefit from... does anyone have any cost saving suggestions? What was your shopping process to get best value for your dollar?  There is an oft repeated piece of advice to buy a new car at the end of the month as the dealer is supposedly most motivated by monthly sales quotas at that point, but not so sure it applies to outboards?  Doing some/all of the work yourself or buying slightly used are also obvious money savers, if the associated risk pays off, you have skills to do the work and don't get a used lemon.  Any other tips?

[fishmeister]

In any regard, it seems I may have slightly derailed my own thread by focusing in on the minutae of my specific situation, when the original intent was to be a broadly applicable resource for all.  Apologies.

To get back to lessons learned that anyone looking to repower could benefit from... does anyone have any cost saving suggestions? What was your shopping process to get best value for your dollar?  There is an oft repeated piece of advice to buy a new car at the end of the month as the dealer is supposedly most motivated by monthly sales quotas at that point, but not so sure it applies to outboards?  Doing some/all of the work yourself or buying slightly used are also obvious money savers, if the associated risk pays off, you have skills to do the work and don't get a used lemon.  Any other tips?

One general consensus here (I think) is that all of the modern outboards are pretty good quality.  The bigger thing is to find a good/reputable dealer to do business with.

[HalfCaff]

Yep, I would consider any of them at this point - but the Yamaha and Zuki are the current front runners.  Honda doesn't seem to have a good presence with actual marine shops in my area - its all motorcycle/ATV shops so that scares me a bit.  I do have a good independent marine mechanic who has been servicing my current motor, so I intend to give him a call and see what he has to say about rigging and just general advice too.

[Tom C]

I agree all the manufactures are producing great product.

One thing to keep in mind in the 90 HP class is that only the Mercury is available in the Command Thrust gearcase, which is a very worthwhile option for an Arima because of the larger 4.75 propeller. All others turn 4.25 intermediate size propellers.

[HalfCaff]

I agree all the manufactures are producing great product.

One thing to keep in mind in the 90 HP class is that only the Mercury is available in the Command Thrust gearcase, which is a very worthwhile option for an Arima because of the larger 4.75 propeller. All others turn 4.25 intermediate size propellers.

I was under the impression from the marketing that the Zuki was geared for torque over speed as well, but admittedly I have only a basic grasp on these concepts.  I know the right prop matters, I know higher gear ratio makes more torque, but that's about the extent of my knowledge.  Definitely reliant on the good advice of others.

From Suzuki DF90 marketing:

2-STAGE GEAR REDUCTION
EXPLANATION

This system which incorporates the Offset Driveshaft features a first stage reduction between the crankshaft and drive shaft and a second stage reduction inside the gear case. This design makes a larger gear ratio possible, allowing it to turn a large diameter propeller for high propulsive efficiency while providing higher torque.

[Tom C]

Yes, the four stroke Suzukis have always used lower gearing and turn slightly larger diameter propellers, something other manufacturers have started doing more of, but it's still a 4.25 gearcase which can only turn a maximum 14" diameter prop...on any manufacturer's motors.

[HalfCaff]

Ahh I get it now (kinda).  You're talking about the size of the gear case, not the size of the prop itself.  But larger gear case means option for larger prop.  Got it.

I emailed a bunch of dealers last night and have quotes rolling in from all manufacturers so will have some real world numbers to consider soon.

[Tom C]

There are different ways to describe a gearcase size. The most to-the-point is the approximate diameter of the gearcase's bullet, in inches.

A 4.25 gearcase has a bullet (exhaust tube) of approximately 4-1/4" and propeller that fit such a gearcase have an exhaust tube of roughly 4-1/4" as well. As noted above, the largest diameter propeller such a gearcase can handle is 14"

A 4.75 gearcase is used on most 150 HP and up outboards and can swing a propeller up to 16" in diameter. There are many, many more propeller choices for these "Large" gearcases than there are for the 4.25 "Intermediate" size gearcases.

Different manufacturers use different terminology. Yamaha uses their own system for describing the fitment of their propellers. A G Series prop fits a 3.5 gearcase, a K Series prop fits a 4.25, and an M Series fits a 4.75 (T Series fits a 4.75 as well, but it meant for high horsepower applications).

PowerTech! Propellers uses "classes" where a "C class" fits a 3.5 gearcase, "D class" fits a 4.25, and "E class" fits a 4.75

Clear as mud?

None of this has anything to do with gearcase gear ratios.

[DARice]

Being close to Oregon not paying sales tax and with a dealer experienced with Arimas who also was most flexible in moving my old motor to the buyer's boat made my choice easy.

Dave

[HalfCaff]

There are different ways to describe a gearcase size. The most to-the-point is the approximate diameter of the gearcase's bullet, in inches.

A 4.25 gearcase has a bullet (exhaust tube) of approximately 4-1/4" and propeller that fit such a gearcase have an exhaust tube of roughly 4-1/4" as well. As noted above, the largest diameter propeller such a gearcase can handle is 14"

A 4.75 gearcase is used on most 150 HP and up outboards and can swing a propeller up to 16" in diameter. There are many, many more propeller choices for these "Large" gearcases than there are for the 4.25 "Intermediate" size gearcases.

Different manufacturers use different terminology. Yamaha uses their own system for describing the fitment of their propellers. A G Series prop fits a 3.5 gearcase, a K Series prop fits a 4.25, and an M Series fits a 4.75 (T Series fits a 4.75 as well, but it meant for high horsepower applications).

PowerTech! Propellers uses "classes" where a "C class" fits a 3.5 gearcase, "D class" fits a 4.25, and "E class" fits a 4.75

Clear as mud?

None of this has anything to do with gearcase gear ratios.

Yes, that explanation makes perfect sense, thanks for taking the time to write it.  I guess the marketing for the Zuki is a little disingenuous in that case then?  As in, technically any 4.25 gearcase from any manufacturer should be able to turn up to a 14" prop?  I guess they are insinuating they can turn it easier/better than the competitors due to the higher gear ratio?  Or is it really just marketing that has no underpinning in truth?

[JDB]

Yeah, sort of stretching it... A "bigger" prop is not just diameter.  A theoretical prop with large surface area but only moderate diameter could be really difficult to turn, and therefore it is a "bigger" prop, a prop with higher pitch is a bigger prop, more blades might be considered a bigger prop.  Black magic, sorcery, all that stuff (but no magic potion...)

[Tom C]

I guess the marketing for the Zuki is a little disingenuous in that case then?  As in, technically any 4.25 gearcase from any manufacturer should be able to turn up to a 14" prop?  I guess they are insinuating they can turn it easier/better than the competitors due to the higher gear ratio?  Or is it really just marketing that has no underpinning in truth?

Not disingenuous, just physics. To make a larger propeller go 'round, you need lower gearing, if the power is the same.

None of this is really very new, or a Suzuki thing. For decades there have been two version of one outboard, one with a smaller gearcase, the other with a larger gearcase and a lower gearing.

Mercury had their BigFoot models (now called Command Thrust), Yamaha has their Hi-Thrust or "T" models, Honda has their Power Thrust models, and OMC/BRP used 4.25 gearcases all the way down to some of their 40 HP models with gearing as low as 2.67:1

I remember when Mercury came out with their BigFoot mid-range outboards, marketed as good for Pontoons and work boats, and every time somebody asked if they should choose a BigFoot model for their skiff or runabout, folks would say, no, no, that's just for slow, heavy boats. In reality, some figured out that's not true at all; Boston Whaler chose to equip several of their small skiffs with BigFoot models simply because the boat performed better overall.

[Mustard tiger]

1) What criteria do you use to decide it is time?  Hours, maintenance costs, age, run it until it dies?

I Had an Etec 115hp with 600hours, ran perfect and I loved it. But Service and parts for would be an issue, if injector or ECM failed.

2) When you last repowered, what did you start with and what did you go to?  Do you have a particular allegiance to specific brands or models?

Started with 2007 Etec 115hp  and got 115 Hp Honda. I was not looking, however Honda some crazy rebates and the shop had even better deal. Really wanted a Yamaha but there is no way I was paying the Yamaha tax, LOL. So far I am blown away by the Honda. The Torque is way better than Etec. Don't notice the extra weight, it plans at slower speed. Fuel milage is wash.  Honda 115 is a detuned 150 hp, so the most torque in a 115hp. The Honda is way quieter and smoother. Never thought the Etec was bad, but now there is no harmonics in the boat, it feels almost electric, blown away. LOL

3) Budget, if you are comfortable sharing

With selling The Etec, the upgrade cost me $10500 Canadian. That is the reason I did it, Etec was still worth money running, and now I have peace of mind.

4) What did you do yourself versus what you paid someone else to do?

All the Dealer did was hang the engine. I did everything myself and rewired and routed everything.  I have seen my friends boat rigged after a re-power and its pretty badly done, because the tech is working on a time limit. But some of the things I have seen is very scary, wires rubbing on screws, loose hose clamps on fuel lines.

5) What would you do different next time?

Not listen to dealer on which hole position to mount engine.

6) What caught you by surprise?

Kicker Tie bar, how hard it is to get full steering from the front.  Had Ez steer, but not safe to hang over the stern to install, with my young son.  Ended up doing liquid tie bar which is expensive but worth every penny.   

[HalfCaff]

1) What criteria do you use to decide it is time?  Hours, maintenance costs, age, run it until it dies?

I Had an Etec 115hp with 600hours, ran perfect and I loved it. But Service and parts for would be an issue, if injector or ECM failed.

2) When you last repowered, what did you start with and what did you go to?  Do you have a particular allegiance to specific brands or models?

Started with 2007 Etec 115hp  and got 115 Hp Honda. I was not looking, however Honda some crazy rebates and the shop had even better deal. Really wanted a Yamaha but there is no way I was paying the Yamaha tax, LOL. So far I am blown away by the Honda. The Torque is way better than Etec. Don't notice the extra weight, it plans at slower speed. Fuel milage is wash.  Honda 115 is a detuned 150 hp, so the most torque in a 115hp. The Honda is way quieter and smoother. Never thought the Etec was bad, but now there is no harmonics in the boat, it feels almost electric, blown away. LOL

3) Budget, if you are comfortable sharing

With selling The Etec, the upgrade cost me $10500 Canadian. That is the reason I did it, Etec was still worth money running, and now I have peace of mind.

4) What did you do yourself versus what you paid someone else to do?

All the Dealer did was hang the engine. I did everything myself and rewired and routed everything.  I have seen my friends boat rigged after a re-power and its pretty badly done, because the tech is working on a time limit. But some of the things I have seen is very scary, wires rubbing on screws, loose hose clamps on fuel lines.

5) What would you do different next time?

Not listen to dealer on which hole position to mount engine.

6) What caught you by surprise?

Kicker Tie bar, how hard it is to get full steering from the front.  Had Ez steer, but not safe to hang over the stern to install, with my young son.  Ended up doing liquid tie bar which is expensive but worth every penny.   

Thanks for sharing, and nice to see someone else from Canada on here.  How long ago was that repower?  Honda is definitely in the running - probably the cheapest since the gauges and controls are included, and most chance of being able to reuse some of the stuff I already have.  Not that many dealers on Vancouver Island though, and most of them are motorcycle/ATV shops, not marine shops.  The one in town referred me to the same mechanic that has been servicing my existing motor for the rigging.  I was already planning to talk to him anyway.  Honda is also the heaviest, all though they are all close with the Suzuki being an outlier and another 10 lbs lighter than the rest of the pack.  Excluding anything with less HP than 90 of course.

[HalfCaff]

Thanks Tom C and JDB for the continued prop schooling.  I am sure there will be many other questions in my future, but I'll start a thread specific to that if the time comes.

[Mustard tiger]

I'm also on Vancouver Island.  Purchased from Campbell river boatland.  Also talked to Bruce from bk marine. I was also very close to buying the Tohatsu 140hp I believe it's the same engine 75 to 140.  They make tons of torque, Bruce also does the warranty.  Went on 17 sea ranger with a 140, it flew.

[HalfCaff]

I'm also on Vancouver Island.  Purchased from Campbell river boatland.  Also talked to Bruce from bk marine. I was also very close to buying the Tohatsu 140hp I believe it's the same engine 75 to 140.  They make tons of torque, Bruce also does the warranty.  Went on 17 sea ranger with a 140, it flew.

Haha Bruce is who has been servicing my boat and motor for the last 15 or so years.  The last year for me, and for the previous owners before that.  Also who VI Powersports referredme to for mounting.  Already in talks with him.

[Mustard tiger]

Haha Bruce is who has been servicing my boat and motor for the last 15 or so years.  The last year for me, and for the previous owners before that.  Also who VI Powersports referredme to for mounting.  Already in talks with him.
[/quote]

Too funny.   I just got the Honda in February.

[JDB]

If I had a 19 instead of the 21, I would absolutely have that Tohatsu 140.  Great design/engine architecture (by all accounts very efficient and torque plentiful powerplant), beautiful exterior, awesome color choice... Too bad they don't have a scaled up version in the 150 class.

[Mustard tiger]

This Website lets you look at Torque output of the outboards, Quite useful

https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/new-vehicle-and-engine-certification-executive-orders-my2023-spark-ignited-marine-engines

[DARice]

This Website lets you look at Torque output of the outboards, Quite useful

https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/new-vehicle-and-engine-certification-executive-orders-my2023-spark-ignited-marine-engines

Great info!

Torque for the 90hp
-Honda 123 Newton-meters
-Suzuki 123
-Mercury 150
-Yamaha 143

Yami F75 has 128 n-m, Yami 115 155 n-m.

Honda 115, which is a much bigger motor (2.3L), 194 n-m.

1 newton-meter=0.74 ft-pounds.

[amazing grace]

Have a 19SRHT with alaskan bulkhead. Mine has a Honda 90hp with 1000hrs. As Danno say's it is barely broken in . I don't have a ton of hours on it myself. But have been pleasantly surprised on its performance.  It also has a heavy Honda 8hp hi thrust xl shaft kicker and Lenco trim tabs.

an upgrade has crossed my mind. But have been going through some upgrades so that is not in the cards. If it was I would be looking at the 135/140hp class.

So I guess that would include the Honda, Suzuki and Tohatsu. Depending on weight I might think about a 150hp like the command thrust. For me, lighter is better.
If doing a 115hp I would definitely go Honda because that is what I have.

As far as criteria goes; age, maintenance, performance issues, hours, abuse/neglect would all factor in.

In your case specially I would stay in the 90hp or 115hp class and stay away from anything less.

Doing any of it yourself depends strictly what you are comfortable with.   

My biggest fear is dealing with a shop where as you drive up to drop the boat off the seasoned guy who is the best rigger around just walked out the door pissed off and quit. and now the parts counter guy is up for your install

 

[Tom C]

This Website lets you look at Torque output of the outboards, Quite useful

https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/new-vehicle-and-engine-certification-executive-orders-my2023-spark-ignited-marine-engines

It should be noted that it is Peak Torque that is listed, and it is listed in newton/meters

Power is also listed, though in kilowatts, not horsepower. To covert kW to HP multiply by 1.34102