I know there are about 1 million threads on here already about repowering this boat or that boat, and they are a wealth of info but quite a bit to sift through. I thought it might be a good idea to start a "knowledge base" style thread to collect general well earned wisdom, advice, lessons etc. about repowering our boats.
As I have mentioned on other threads, I am probably due for a repower within the next couple seasons. I have a 1987 Sea Ranger 17', and the main is a Honda 75hp 4 stroke, dated to approximately '97 by the serial numbers, and over 3500 hours if my hour meter is to be believed. It has given me no real issues thus far (knock on wood), other than a prop strike last season. It takes a little finesse on the choke to get it going when cold, but I can usually do it on the first turn of the key - second at best. All that said, I haven't taken it for any truly long runs over 30 mins max. I usually run out to the fishing grounds and troll on my kicker. I know these motors have a good rep for longevity when taken care of, and this one has been. Same mechanic for the last 15+ years, all receipts etc. Still, I'm resigned to the fact that it is only a matter of time and it sure would be nice to not deal with a carburetor and choke anymore. And as I take my boat further afield and away from civilization for some cruising, I just am always sort of waiting for the shoe to drop, so to speak.
So all that said, I can contribute more questions than answers regarding repowering at this point, so I'll kick off the discussion that way? Not really expecting answers to all of these questions, they are just jumping off points for the discussion. Feel free to contribute whatever you think is relevant.
1) What criteria do you use to decide it is time? Hours, maintenance costs, age, run it until it dies?
2) When you last repowered, what did you start with and what did you go to? Do you have a particular allegiance to specific brands or models?
3) Budget, if you are comfortable sharing
4) What did you do yourself versus what you paid someone else to do?
5) What would you do different next time?
6) What caught you by surprise?
7) Is there anything specific to know about repowering an Arima versus any other boat?
The perfect time to repower is JUST before the engine dies, and if you're able to predict that, you could make lots of money as a fortuneteller - or stock trader.
Seriously, it's usually a matter of your comfort zone. If you're going offshore for tuna, it's a lot more stressful than lake fishing. If your kicker is newer and 100% reliable, it's less stressful, but if you're running the kicker off the same fuel supply as the main, not so much. I feel that a really solid VHF/antenna and GPS are requirements for the salt - cellphones and handhelds don't get it.
I bought my 19 well-used, with a carbureted and pre-nmea Honda 75 with unknown hours, knowing that the motor was both too small and too old for my use. The dealer agreed to buy back the 75 and sell me a new BF115. He was very accommodating, giving me a fair trade and some discounts on controls, cables and rigging parts. I showed up with all the original motor rigging and controls removed. They pulled the old motor, dropped on the new one, and I was gone in an hour, smiling all the way home. Motor budget was around 10.5K less trade-in.
I wanted a Honda, based on previous experience with 2 others, and I think the 115 is the best performing motor in its class, ideal for my 19 Hdtp. After 3 years, I haven't changed my opinion. I did all the work myself, spending about 9 months replacing electrical, fuel, steering - basically everything attached to the boat is new except the fuel tank. I did NOT count hours, quit counting dollars about halfway through, and would be embarrassed with the total if I knew. The upside is that I know exactly where everything is, what it does, and how to fix it if it breaks.
I was surprised by how long it took and how much it cost, but it was still much cheaper than buying a new rig - and everything is just how I want it. I think a good formula to go by is that it will likely cost half-again as much and take twice as long as you think, but I wouldn't do it differently.
Repowering an Arima is pretty normal as long as you remember that they are short, wide, and heavy. They have the ability to carry a LOT of weight, so most owners do just that. Underpowering won't save you much on fuel, is harder on the motor, and will make the boat less responsive when you need it. Don't skimp on horsepower to save a few dollars. (I'm the exception here, so my opinion is just that.) :facepalm:
There are many different reasons to repower. I added a new kicker because the one that came with the boat was DOA. The main was a very different decision.
My quick summary on replacing the main:
-Reliability/confidence for my use
-How long I intend to keep the boat
-Ease of maintenance, including part availability
-Value of the old/outgoing motor that would decline rapidly
It was a low hours Mercury 4 stroke (2004, when I sold, 400hrs). I had some troubles with that motor--the solutions were inexpensive and completely effective--but I lost most of a summer diagnosing it myself and paying mechanics (my solution was what worked), then rebuilding my confidence in the motor to go offshore.
Parts were very hard to find and the specter of a 'someday' very expensive carb rebuild and some heavy corrosion on the steering arm gave me pause for how I mostly use the boat: solo in the ocean.
When decided that the SC17 is really the right boat for me for the foreseeable future, in spite of periodically straining against 2 footitis (symptoms are abating!), I chose to sell the Mercury while it still had great value and start enjoying a new motor right away. I'm extremely happy with my decision.
Dave
Quote from: davidsea on April 12, 2024, 01:13:23 AMThe perfect time to repower is JUST before the engine dies, and if you're able to predict that, you could make lots of money as a fortuneteller - or stock trader.
Seriously, its usually a matter of your comfort zone. If you're going offshore for tuna, it's a lot more stressful than lake fishing. If your kicker is newer and 100% reliable, it's less stressful, but if you're running the kicker off the same fuel supply as the main, not so much. I feel that a really solid VHF/antenna and GPS are requirements for the salt - cellphones and handhelds don't get it.
I bought my 19 well-used, with a carbureted and pre-nmea Honda 75 with unknown hours, knowing that the motor was both too small and too old for my use. The dealer agreed to buy back the 75 and sell me a new BF115. He was very accommodating, giving me a fair trade and some discounts on controls, cables and rigging parts. I showed up with all the original motor rigging and controls removed. They pulled the old motor, dropped on the new one, and I was gone in an hour, smiling all the way home. Motor budget was around 10.5K less trade-in.
I wanted a Honda, based on previous experience with 2 others, and I think the 115 is the best performing motor in its class, ideal for my 19 Hdtp. After 3 years, I haven't changed my opinion. I did all the work myself, spending about 9 months replacing electrical, fuel, steering - basically everything attached to the boat is new except the fuel tank. I did NOT count hours, and quit counting dollars about halfway through, and would be embarrassed with the total if I knew. The upside is that I know exactly where everything is, what it does, and how to fix it if it breaks.
I was surprised by how long it took and how much it cost, but it was still much cheaper than buying a new rig - and everything is just how I want it. I think a good formula to go by is that it will likely cost half-again as much and take twice as long as you think, but I wouldn't do it differently.
Repowering an Arima is pretty normal as long as you remember that they are short, wide, and heavy. They have the ability to carry a LOT of weight, so most owners do just that. Underpowering won't save you much on fuel, is harder on the motor, and will make the boat less responsive when you need it. Don't skimp on horsepower to save a few dollars. (I'm the exception here, so my opinion is just that.) :facepalm:
Good take/info. I have put a lot of sweat equity into my boat already since buying last year. Pretty much a full rewire minus the motor controls and gauges. Mounted riggers, trim tabs, move ducer, fixed splashwell drain tube, new bilge pump with enlarged access, mounted new Merc 9.9 kicker on fixed bracket. I think I could probably hand pulling the old controls off the boat and installing the new controls and gauges. Would most likely leave the actual hanging of the motor to a pro.
I hear you on error on the side of more power not less, but also thinking about weight. I think a new 90hp would weigh around the same as the 75hp I have on there now. Weight wise it is tempting to look at a Yamaha F70 and I know there is at least one member here with that combo I'd love to hear from, but it seems the overwhelming majority consider 90hp the min for a SR17.
Safety wise I have no ambitions to chase tuna off shore, but would like to work the west cost of Vancouver Island for Salmon. The vast majority of my fishing is a 45 min run max, with lots of other boats around. But we may explore the Broughtons or some other longer runs this year. Safety wise of course all the mandatory gear, as well as a new VHF with DSC and antennae, GPS was already on it and we have a Garmin Inreach on board as well. PFD always, no exceptions. Likely will invest in a handheld VHF for backup and an personal locator beacon too.
Quote from: DARice on April 12, 2024, 05:15:41 PMThere are many different reasons to repower. I added a new kicker because the one that came with the boat was DOA. The main was a very different decision.
My quick summary on replacing the main:
-Reliability/confidence for my use
-How long I intend to keep the boat
-Ease of maintenance, including part availability
-Value of the old/outgoing motor that would decline rapidly
It was a low hours Mercury 4 stroke (2004, when I sold, 400hrs). I had some troubles with that motor--the solutions were inexpensive and completely effective--but I lost most of a summer diagnosing it myself and paying mechanics (my solution was what worked), then rebuilding my confidence in the motor to go offshore.
Parts were very hard to find and the specter of a 'someday' very expensive carb rebuild and some heavy corrosion on the steering arm gave me pause for how I mostly use the boat: solo in the ocean.
When decided that the SC17 is really the right boat for me for the foreseeable future, in spite of periodically straining against 2 footitis (symptoms are abating!), I chose to sell the Mercury while it still had great value and start enjoying a new motor right away. I'm extremely happy with my decision.
Dave
Good take as well - considering how long you might keep the boat is a good criteria. In my case, this is probably my boat for at least the next 10 years. I have a bit of a challenging uphill driveway and my boat shelter just fits it. I don't physically have room for a bigger boat. In my case, two-foot-itus would mean either getting moorage (which isn't cheap or easy to come by), or a bigger house/property. Plus, 75% of the time I fish solo and if not it is the wife or maybe 2 other guys. The SR17 is probably the perfect size boat for where I am at now - mostly inshore fishing with the odd trip further afield when weather allows. Easy to trailer on Vancouver Island where I live, so I can explore all of the different spots that are a reasonable drive away. The only reason I would see trading up soon is if something catastrophic happened. Give me 10 years when I am ready to retire to the North Island, I'll probably want something a little bigger by then.
My choice to re-power was due to problems starting to creep up with my main. I was feeling like I was starting to dump money into it. I was also starting to question reliability, which caused me to limit my range from the launch. My main was a '96 that was on the boat when I bought it (PO hadn't owned the boat very long so history was a big, fat, unknown). The hour meter said over 1400hrs. But, I had a suspicion that the controls/gauges might have been re-used from the last re-power. Therefore, I had no way to authenticate the hours. When I had a carb problem and the culprit was the one (of four) that was obsolete and could not be found anywhere, decisions had to be made (a sudden, unexplained oil leak kind of helped decide too).
I had to decide if I wanted to spend the money to drop a new motor onto a then-41yr-old hull (I'm sure that some folks here think I'm crazy for that). Like DARice, my long-range plans for the boat was a huge factor. I love my little SH. I had already poured quite a bit of money into it and I knew that I wanted to keep it for the long-haul. I do a mix of fishing. Lakes, river, and Puget Sound. The SH is good at all 3 and is a really versatile boat.
I had other decisions to make too. I had to decide used vs. new. I also had to decide whether to try and re-use the rigging, controls, gauges.
Both of these choices also came down to long-range plans for the boat. I didn't have the cash for a re-power laying around. So, financing was going to have to happen (regrettably). I wasn't going to run the risks of getting a used motor only to have to repeat this four or five years later. I decided that, if I'm going into debt for this, I'm going all-in and only going to do it once. I decided that I was going to go all-new-everything. I wasn't willing to go that far in, cheap-out somewhere, and then have to continue to dump more money into the motor/running gear.
I don't regret any of the choices. I've got a new motor, new controls/cables, and a new digital gauge. I can now rely on that motor. I really enjoyed feeling comfortable taking it for longer runs last summer to slay some humpies (and a coho). I now have a motor for which I know the hours and all maintenance history. I just fired it up for the first time of the year a couple weeks ago. Previous startup was Thanksgiving weekend last fall. The motor fired up as if I had just run it the day before. It's hard to beat that feeling.
My re-power came during the later stages of the Covid panic. Availability really sucked. My choice of motor brand was driven a lot by the fact that I stumbled onto a small local dealer that had the right size motor sitting on his showroom floor due to a cancelled job. Some places were telling me to expect a 6-9 month wait for a motor to come available. I didn't want to miss the entire fishing season so I took the motor that was available.
When all was said and done, I was in to my re-power for about $10.5K. That was new-everything (motor, wire harness, control, shift/throttle cables, and gauge). I did save some money working with a small, local shop (shout-out to Salish Boat Co.). He was great to work with. He had no problem providing me with a parts list and I shopped for the rigging online myself. I did all of the prep work. I had the old motor removed, all old rigging removed, and the gas tank pulled. I also took care of filling some old mount holes that I found on the transom. I took care of the final dash repair/overlay to mount my gauge.
In the end, I really have no regrets about my choices and how it turned out. I'm really enjoying my boat now.
That's my story.
Quote from: fishmeister on April 12, 2024, 07:55:09 PMMy choice to re-power was due to problems starting to creep up with my main. I was feeling like I was starting to dump money into it. I was also starting to question reliability, which caused me to limit my range from the launch. My main was a '96 that was on the boat when I bought it (PO hadn't owned the boat very long so history was a big, fat, unknown). The hour meter said over 1400hrs. But, I had a suspicion that the controls/gauges might have been re-used from the last re-power. Therefore, I had no way to authenticate the hours. When I had a carb problem and the culprit was the one (of four) that was obsolete and could not be found anywhere, decisions had to be made (a sudden, unexplained oil leak kind of helped decide too).
I had to decide if I wanted to spend the money to drop a new motor onto a then-41yr-old hull (I'm sure that some folks here think I'm crazy for that). Like DARice, my long-range plans for the boat was a huge factor. I love my little SH. I had already poured quite a bit of money into it and I knew that I wanted to keep it for the long-haul. I do a mix of fishing. Lakes, river, and Puget Sound. The SH is good at all 3 and is a really versatile boat.
I had other decisions to make too. I had to decide used vs. new. I also had to decide whether to try and re-use the rigging, controls, gauges.
Both of these choices also came down to long-range plans for the boat. I didn't have the cash for a re-power laying around. So, financing was going to have to happen (regrettably). I wasn't going to run the risks of getting a used motor only to have to repeat this four or five years later. I decided that, if I'm going into debt for this, I'm going all-in and only going to do it once. I decided that I was going to go all-new-everything. I wasn't willing to go that far in, cheap-out somewhere, and then have to continue to dump more money into the motor/running gear.
I don't regret any of the choices. I've got a new motor, new controls/cables, and a new digital gauge. I can now rely on that motor. I really enjoyed feeling comfortable taking it for longer runs last summer to slay some humpies (and a coho). I now have a motor for which I know the hours and all maintenance history. I just fired it up for the first time of the year a couple weeks ago. Previous startup was Thanksgiving weekend last fall. The motor fired up as if I had just run it the day before. It's hard to beat that feeling.
My re-power came during the later stages of the Covid panic. Availability really sucked. My choice of motor brand was driven a lot by the fact that I stumbled onto a small local dealer that had the right size motor sitting on his showroom floor due to a cancelled job. Some places were telling me to expect a 6-9 month wait for a motor to come available. I didn't want to miss the entire fishing season so I took the motor that was available.
When all was said and done, I was in to my re-power for about $10.5K. That was new-everything (motor, wire harness, control, shift/throttle cables, and gauge). I did save some money working with a small, local shop (shout-out to Salish Boat Co.). He was great to work with. He had no problem providing me with a parts list and I shopped for the rigging online myself. I did all of the prep work. I had the old motor removed, all old rigging removed, and the gas tank pulled. I also took care of filling some old mount holes that I found on the transom. I took care of the final dash repair/overlay to mount my gauge.
In the end, I really have no regrets about my choices and how it turned out. I'm really enjoying my boat now.
That's my story.
Its a good story too! $10.5K for all new, installed seems like a good deal to me, even if you did a lot of the prep work and rigging yourself. If I follow the same path, I'll be paying in Canadian funny money, so I don't think it works out quite so well for us. Is what it is though. I did get a good deal on my kicker last year I think, and rigged that myself. Even unloaded it from the back of the pickup myself... which was a bit of a trick!
Quote from: HalfCaff on April 12, 2024, 06:28:03 PMWeight wise it is tempting to look at a Yamaha F70 and I know there is at least one member here with that combo I'd love to hear from, but it seems the overwhelming majority consider 90hp the min for a SR17.
Consider more than just one number (horsepower) when you're looking at engines. In the Yamaha line, the F50/60/70 are all the same displacement and weight. Personally, I don't think a 1-liter motor with a 15A alternator is going to be enough for a 17' fishboat. The F75/90 are 100# heavier, but are 1.8 liters with 35A alternators. Honda BF75/90/100's are all 1.5L, 35A, 6# heavier than Yamaha. Displacement - and torque numbers, if you can find them - are more important than horsepower on our heavier, slower Arimas. A healthy alternator output is always a good thing on a well-equipped boat.
Quote from: davidsea on April 12, 2024, 09:43:08 PMQuote from: HalfCaff on April 12, 2024, 06:28:03 PMWeight wise it is tempting to look at a Yamaha F70 and I know there is at least one member here with that combo I'd love to hear from, but it seems the overwhelming majority consider 90hp the min for a SR17.
Consider more than just one number (horsepower) when you're looking at engines. In the Yamaha line, the F50/60/70 are all the same displacement and weight. Personally, I don't think a 1-liter motor with a 15A alternator is going to be enough for a 17' fishboat. The F75/90 are 100# heavier, but are 1.8 liters with 35A alternators. Honda BF75/90/100's are all 1.5L, 35A, 6# heavier than Yamaha. Displacement - and torque numbers, if you can find them - are more important than horsepower on our heavier, slower Arimas. A healthy alternator output is always a good thing on a well-equipped boat.
Oh for sure, never underestimate my capacity for compulsive research before making a major purchase. You should see the spreadsheet I made before I settled on a kicker! Writing and reviewing RFP's is a big part of my day job too. All the key specs would be lined up side by side, and lowest price wouldn't necessarily be the final choice.
Quote from: HalfCaff on April 12, 2024, 09:20:58 PMIf I follow the same path, I'll be paying in Canadian funny money, so I don't think it works out quite so well for us.
Yeah, paying in Loonies and Toonies is likely to add a bit to the cost, regardless of which brand you go with. Maybe you can hook up the boat and "make a run for the border"? Bring it down here for the swap? Not sure if that's worth the savings. :shrug9:
Quote from: fishmeister on April 12, 2024, 10:11:08 PMQuote from: HalfCaff on April 12, 2024, 09:20:58 PMIf I follow the same path, I'll be paying in Canadian funny money, so I don't think it works out quite so well for us.
Yeah, paying in Loonies and Toonies is likely to add a bit to the cost, regardless of which brand you go with. Maybe you can hook up the boat and "make a run for the border"? Bring it down here for the swap? Not sure if that's worth the savings. :shrug9:
Pretty sure they'd get me at the border with taxes and duties, and my money is only worth 73 cents on the greenback, as of today.
I repowered with a consideration of 2 footitis. Went with a 115 on a 17, then transferred to 19. Went with merc, it was a cost thing, saving a couple grand over the next cheapest, Yamaha.
Original johnson was neglected and becoming ever more unreliable and dangerous.
Removed the original with help of a gent who wanted to purchase it from craigslist.
Shop mounted the new and they ran all new controls. Purchased warranty from another shop at ½ the cost.
On the 19 swap. I swapped the controls while the shop did the heavy lifting. One lesson was to be sure the steering tube is connected at time of motor install otherwise clearance is a challenge.
A couple of months ago did a repower (21 foot SR skip) from an old but very low hour/lot of time sitting in saltwater Suzuki df140 (first Gen 2.38:1) to a Merc 150 (MASSIVE torque difference). Has Salish Boat Co. do the big work, did the rest at home. (Great peop's at Salish in Anacortes). Wasn't confident in the reliability of the old previously neglected motor; swapped it out before it seriously stranded us out on the water. Definitely work on engine height with a sea trial.
Also took the time to replace bilge hoses, reroute electrical harness, clean fuel tanks, replace fuel lines, relocate fuel water separator...
Now have much more confidence in the reliability.
No idea how much I spent, the price is worth the satisfaction and enjoyment.
Thanks for the comments and adding to the discussion folks. Good tip on the steering tube head duck. I think I almost have my wife convinced to at least start getting some quotes together. I am in the process of selling a camper van we built during peak covid and before I bought the boat, so will hopefully get some scratch toward the cause from that.
I hear often people saying something to the effect of "engine needs to go up a hole". I assume that is basically redoing the mounting - ie pulling the gas tank, pulling the bolts, having a hoist, resealing the through holes etc. Seems it would be in the best interest to do everything you can to get it at the right height to start with, but maybe I don't fully understand the process.
What did everyone do about their steering when they repowered? Keep the mechanical steering or did anyone switch over to hydraulic in the process?
Quote from: HalfCaff on April 14, 2024, 09:26:29 AMWhat did everyone do about their steering when they repowered? Keep the mechanical steering or did anyone switch over to hydraulic in the process?
Switched from no feedback rack and pinion to Hydraulic (Uflex). Very nice upgrade especially considering the HP/torque difference.
I'm sure Tom C. has more extensive knowledge of motor mounting heights, but I'm trying to get the anti-ventilation plate just at the surface (getting spray is okay) of the water when at cruise... Which is similar to what the Suzuki was set up like. Little less drag (better fuel efficiency), little less steering effort, but the potential to have ventilation and porpoise issues (both bad).
Quote from: HalfCaff on April 14, 2024, 09:26:29 AMWhat did everyone do about their steering when they repowered? Keep the mechanical steering or did anyone switch over to hydraulic in the process?
My boat had hydraulic (Baystar) when I bought it. So, I kept the steering "as is". Granted, I don't have any experience for comparison. But, I do like the feel and control when running in currents such as Deception Pass and the Skagit River.
All modern outboard motors over ~>50 HP and <300 HP are mounted to the boat with four bolts that are spaced according to an industry standard, known as the BIA bolt pattern, which has its origin all the way back in 1960 when OMC introduced the first V-4 outboard. It became standard in the industry in the mid 1980s.
Arimas have all been built during this period of standardization, so virtually all outboards used on Arimas can be adjusted vertically on the transom with relative ease.
All large outboards have mytiple mounting holes to allow this. The spacing on center (o.c.) between adjacent holes is 3/4" (sometimes described in millimeters for Hondas, but it's the same distance)
Most outboards used to power Arimas have four or five sets of mounting holes, so there is a good range of choice. When describing mounting height, the most common jargon is how many "holes up". This is sometimes confusing to some folks, so here is the pictograph I use where the lowercase letter "o" represents a mounting hole in the motor's bracket where the bolt goes through:
o <— mounted all the way down (on the transom)
o <— mounted one hole up
o <— mounted two holes up
o <— mounted three holes up
o <— mounted four holes up
Yamaha describes the holes in terms of position where the top hole (lowest mounting) is position #1, and so on.
All that said, the mounting position will depend on the motor chosen.
The goal is always the same, achieve the best possible performance from the new motor, however, the definition of "performance" is up to you. For one person it might be best fuel economy, for another it might be handling, yet another might want the best top speed. Those goals are not necessary mutually exclusive, but there are some trade-offs.
Motor mounting height also depends, to some degree, on the propeller being used; some props will not tolerate high mounting positions.
As a starting point, the cavitation plate (AV plate) of the motor should not be lower than the keel of the hull when the motor is trimmed so the cavitation plate is a parallel to the keel.
For most small boats in this class, I recommend the cavitation plate be 1/2" to 1" ABOVE the keel.
Most vintage Arimas had their original motors mounted all the way down. They used mechanical steering, and the splashwell cut-out and boot for the steering cable was positioned for this.
You can repower and raise the motor one hole and still use the boot (on my 17SR, just barely) but once you're two holes up, you either elongate the hole, fill and re-drill the hole...or switch to hydraulic.
For small motors, a new mechanical steering system is great, reliable and inexpensive (~$300), but hydraulic is a step up and solves some problems. But it is also expensive. You're not going to get a new hydraulic system for less than ~$1,000 all in.
Quote from: Tom C on April 14, 2024, 06:28:42 PMMost vintage Arimas had their original motors mounted all the way down. They used mechanical steering, and the splashwell cut-out and boot for the steering cable was positioned for this.
You can repower and raise the motor one hole and still use the boot (on my 17SR, just barely) but once you're two holes up, you either elongate the hole, fill and re-drill the hole...or switch to hydraulic.
For small motors, a new mechanical steering system is great, reliable and inexpensive (~$300), but hydraulic is a step up and solves some problems. But it is also expensive. You're not going to get a new hydraulic system for less than ~$1,000 all in.
And then there are
real "vintage" Arimas, like mine.
My '81 seems to pre-date standardization. I'm sure that the original motor was probably around a 45hp 2-stroke. When I removed my old motor, I found old, siliconed, mount holes that were small and nothing close to modern layout/spread (I drilled out the silicone and glassed them in). I also found two distinctive round clamp marks on the inside of the transom.
The motor that I removed was a '96 Merc 4-stroke. It only had 3 sets of holes. Some joker mounted it by drilling the top set of holes for the top and the bottom set of holes on the lower. That would have made adjusting up/down impossible. I also glassed in those lower holes. I had my new main installed with properly drilled holes. My new Merc has 5 sets of holes, like TomC's diagram.
Thanks for the great info Tom C. What do you figure is the ideal HP/displacement for a SR17, used primarily in the salt. Not really going offshore, but will do some cruising and overnighting in the Broughtons, or some of the sounds on WCVI. My priority wouldn't be top speed, but safety and reliability, I guess followed by gas mileage. Weight matters too but seems like most motors with comparable HP are also within the same weight range, give or take.
90 HP which will push the boat to 35 MPH. Not much fun going faster than that. I have a Yamaha F70 on mine, and it can hit 30 MPH and sips fuel. Might not be great loaded with a family and camping gear, but that's not how I use it.
The light weight of the F70 has a remarkable effect on the buoyancy of the hull. I removed the T9.9 and its bracket, lightening the load even more. The Yamaha's can be fitted with the troll control switch to toggle down the idle speed for trolling.
Thanks again Tom C. Yes, I noted with interest when you mentioned your F70 on a SR17 in another thread. I've got the impression in my short time here that you seem to be one of the more respected/go to sources of information when it comes to the things that actually move our boats - motors and props. So when I saw you had gone with the F70, I figured there must be a reason - weight being the obvious one. I also note though that your response to my question about "ideal" motor size for a SR17 is aligned with the vast majority of opinions I have seen - 90hp. I guess maybe it is a specific scenario and style of intended use that makes the F70 an option for you?
I admit that the weight advantage is compelling to me. If I went with a smaller engine it wouldn't be to save money, it would be to save weight. I haven't been able to definitively search out an online weight spec for my existing 1997 Honda BF75 - but current models there isn't really a difference in weight between the 75 and the 90. So I am reasonably confident that I at least wouldn't be GAINING weight going up to a 90, but can't say that for certain. As it is, I do suffer from the Arima butt heavy syndrome. With the 75hp, the dual batteries, Merc 9.9 EFI, and 3/4 tank fuel at rest my splash well drain tube sits just at or just under the water line. And it doesn't take much of a following see to have water come over the lip of the splash well. I realize a splash well is meant to be wet, but I'd like to have a little more room for error if I can get it. Perhaps I should have forgone the extra weight of the EFI and gone with a carbed kicker - I think that was about 30lbs or so if I recall. I do keep my front water tank full, and carry my tackle and downrigger weights forward in the cuddy.
So yes, definitely intrigued by the lower weight of the F70, if it could be made to work. I don't have a big family - just the wife and I and one dog sometimes. We wouldn't be carrying tonnes of gear or going for long hauls camping, just overnight or maybe a weekend, and we're generally pretty light packers. I would say 60% of my boat use is just me fishing solo, and in that case I'm just carrying tackle and gear for a day trip. I don't even usually bring a cooler of ice – just a kill bag. The other 30% might have two of us on board doing the same thing, and maybe 10% tops would we have 3 people on board or extra gear for camping. Safety is always a primary consideration. I don't intentionally go out in too bad of a sea state, but of course wouldn't want to find myself in a situation where I got caught off guard and didn't have the power to navigate properly back to calmer waters.
I'll admit I haven't spent too much time at WOT with my 75hp, but it cruises with a regular day trip load and two people at about 23-24mph, 4000 RPM or so. I just have the old analog tach so not sure how accurate it is to be honest. Since I added my trim tabs I only have one day on the water, and it was pretty calm. Seemed like I could hold plane down to about 3200 rpm or so in those conditions, with some tab. Still learning how to use them of course. Would it be reasonable to expect similar performance from an F70, propped efficiently and mounted correctly? Especially given the overall weight would be a little less with the lighter motor?
QuoteI haven't been able to definitively search out an online weight spec for my existing 1997 Honda BF75
The 1997 Honda BF75 weighs either 383 or 394 pounds, depending on the shaft length.
A new Yamaha F70 weighs 253 pounds.
Quote from: Tom C on April 15, 2024, 01:30:37 PMQuoteI haven't been able to definitively search out an online weight spec for my existing 1997 Honda BF75
The 1997 Honda BF75 weighs either 383 or 394 pounds, depending on the shaft length.
A new Yamaha F70 weighs 253 pounds.
Thanks Tom C. Sounds like even if I go for a 90hp I would stand to lose about 30 pounds give or take, if that's the case. Good to know. Now it is a matter of prioritizing weight vs power I guess.
Yes, the current F90 weighs 359 pounds, and it's a great motor too. They are both so easy to rig.
Quote from: Tom C on April 15, 2024, 03:33:22 PMYes, the current F90 weighs 359 pounds, and it's a great motor too. They are both so easy to rig.
Yes, if I decide to forgo power for the weight gain, I would be likely looking at Yamaha only (F70).
If going to 90, I would compare all of the brands both on specs and obviously price would come into it too. I'm reasonably confident in my ability to integrate the electronics/controls aspect, though obviously some are probably easier than others. The actual mounting I could probably do too, but I don't have a hoist and am more likely to have a pro do that piece, just for peace of mind.
Part of me really is tempted by the lower weight F70 - but I guess most would consider that underpowered. Not that I am intending to sell anytime soon, but I would consider that perception (true or not) on the resale value. And I guess a slightly lower output alternator as well, not that I have a tonne of electronics I am running. My downriggers would be the highest draw.
In any regard, it seems I may have slightly derailed my own thread by focusing in on the minutae of my specific situation, when the original intent was to be a broadly applicable resource for all. Apologies.
To get back to lessons learned that anyone looking to repower could benefit from... does anyone have any cost saving suggestions? What was your shopping process to get best value for your dollar? There is an oft repeated piece of advice to buy a new car at the end of the month as the dealer is supposedly most motivated by monthly sales quotas at that point, but not so sure it applies to outboards? Doing some/all of the work yourself or buying slightly used are also obvious money savers, if the associated risk pays off, you have skills to do the work and don't get a used lemon. Any other tips?
Quote from: HalfCaff on April 16, 2024, 06:48:32 PMIn any regard, it seems I may have slightly derailed my own thread by focusing in on the minutae of my specific situation, when the original intent was to be a broadly applicable resource for all. Apologies.
To get back to lessons learned that anyone looking to repower could benefit from... does anyone have any cost saving suggestions? What was your shopping process to get best value for your dollar? There is an oft repeated piece of advice to buy a new car at the end of the month as the dealer is supposedly most motivated by monthly sales quotas at that point, but not so sure it applies to outboards? Doing some/all of the work yourself or buying slightly used are also obvious money savers, if the associated risk pays off, you have skills to do the work and don't get a used lemon. Any other tips?
One general consensus here (I think) is that all of the modern outboards are pretty good quality. The bigger thing is to find a good/reputable dealer to do business with.
Yep, I would consider any of them at this point - but the Yamaha and Zuki are the current front runners. Honda doesn't seem to have a good presence with actual marine shops in my area - its all motorcycle/ATV shops so that scares me a bit. I do have a good independent marine mechanic who has been servicing my current motor, so I intend to give him a call and see what he has to say about rigging and just general advice too.
I agree all the manufactures are producing great product.
One thing to keep in mind in the 90 HP class is that only the Mercury is available in the Command Thrust gearcase, which is a very worthwhile option for an Arima because of the larger 4.75 propeller. All others turn 4.25 intermediate size propellers.
Quote from: Tom C on April 17, 2024, 07:49:59 AMI agree all the manufactures are producing great product.
One thing to keep in mind in the 90 HP class is that only the Mercury is available in the Command Thrust gearcase, which is a very worthwhile option for an Arima because of the larger 4.75 propeller. All others turn 4.25 intermediate size propellers.
I was under the impression from the marketing that the Zuki was geared for torque over speed as well, but admittedly I have only a basic grasp on these concepts. I know the right prop matters, I know higher gear ratio makes more torque, but that's about the extent of my knowledge. Definitely reliant on the good advice of others.
From Suzuki DF90 marketing:
2-STAGE GEAR REDUCTION
EXPLANATION
This system which incorporates the Offset Driveshaft features a first stage reduction between the crankshaft and drive shaft and a second stage reduction inside the gear case. This design makes a larger gear ratio possible, allowing it to turn a large diameter propeller for high propulsive efficiency while providing higher torque.
Yes, the four stroke Suzukis have always used lower gearing and turn slightly larger diameter propellers, something other manufacturers have started doing more of, but it's still a 4.25 gearcase which can only turn a maximum 14" diameter prop...on any manufacturer's motors.
Ahh I get it now (kinda). You're talking about the size of the gear case, not the size of the prop itself. But larger gear case means option for larger prop. Got it.
I emailed a bunch of dealers last night and have quotes rolling in from all manufacturers so will have some real world numbers to consider soon.
There are different ways to describe a gearcase size. The most to-the-point is the approximate diameter of the gearcase's bullet, in inches.
A 4.25 gearcase has a bullet (exhaust tube) of approximately 4-1/4" and propeller that fit such a gearcase have an exhaust tube of roughly 4-1/4" as well. As noted above, the largest diameter propeller such a gearcase can handle is 14"
A 4.75 gearcase is used on most 150 HP and up outboards and can swing a propeller up to 16" in diameter. There are many, many more propeller choices for these "Large" gearcases than there are for the 4.25 "Intermediate" size gearcases.
Different manufacturers use different terminology. Yamaha uses their own system for describing the fitment of their propellers. A G Series prop fits a 3.5 gearcase, a K Series prop fits a 4.25, and an M Series fits a 4.75 (T Series fits a 4.75 as well, but it meant for high horsepower applications).
PowerTech! Propellers uses "classes" where a "C class" fits a 3.5 gearcase, "D class" fits a 4.25, and "E class" fits a 4.75
Clear as mud?
None of this has anything to do with gearcase gear ratios.
Being close to Oregon not paying sales tax and with a dealer experienced with Arimas who also was most flexible in moving my old motor to the buyer's boat made my choice easy.
Dave
Quote from: Tom C on April 18, 2024, 06:24:51 AMThere are different ways to describe a gearcase size. The most to-the-point is the approximate diameter of the gearcase's bullet, in inches.
A 4.25 gearcase has a bullet (exhaust tube) of approximately 4-1/4" and propeller that fit such a gearcase have an exhaust tube of roughly 4-1/4" as well. As noted above, the largest diameter propeller such a gearcase can handle is 14"
A 4.75 gearcase is used on most 150 HP and up outboards and can swing a propeller up to 16" in diameter. There are many, many more propeller choices for these "Large" gearcases than there are for the 4.25 "Intermediate" size gearcases.
Different manufacturers use different terminology. Yamaha uses their own system for describing the fitment of their propellers. A G Series prop fits a 3.5 gearcase, a K Series prop fits a 4.25, and an M Series fits a 4.75 (T Series fits a 4.75 as well, but it meant for high horsepower applications).
PowerTech! Propellers uses "classes" where a "C class" fits a 3.5 gearcase, "D class" fits a 4.25, and "E class" fits a 4.75
Clear as mud?
None of this has anything to do with gearcase gear ratios.
Yes, that explanation makes perfect sense, thanks for taking the time to write it. I guess the marketing for the Zuki is a little disingenuous in that case then? As in, technically any 4.25 gearcase from any manufacturer should be able to turn up to a 14" prop? I guess they are insinuating they can turn it easier/better than the competitors due to the higher gear ratio? Or is it really just marketing that has no underpinning in truth?
Yeah, sort of stretching it... A "bigger" prop is not just diameter. A theoretical prop with large surface area but only moderate diameter could be really difficult to turn, and therefore it is a "bigger" prop, a prop with higher pitch is a bigger prop, more blades might be considered a bigger prop. Black magic, sorcery, all that stuff (but no magic potion...)
QuoteI guess the marketing for the Zuki is a little disingenuous in that case then? As in, technically any 4.25 gearcase from any manufacturer should be able to turn up to a 14" prop? I guess they are insinuating they can turn it easier/better than the competitors due to the higher gear ratio? Or is it really just marketing that has no underpinning in truth?
Not disingenuous, just physics. To make a larger propeller go 'round, you need lower gearing, if the power is the same.
None of this is really very new, or a Suzuki thing. For decades there have been two version of one outboard, one with a smaller gearcase, the other with a larger gearcase and a lower gearing.
Mercury had their BigFoot models (now called Command Thrust), Yamaha has their Hi-Thrust or "T" models, Honda has their Power Thrust models, and OMC/BRP used 4.25 gearcases all the way down to some of their 40 HP models with gearing as low as 2.67:1
I remember when Mercury came out with their BigFoot mid-range outboards, marketed as good for Pontoons and work boats, and every time somebody asked if they should choose a BigFoot model for their skiff or runabout, folks would say, no, no, that's just for slow, heavy boats. In reality, some figured out that's not true at all; Boston Whaler chose to equip several of their small skiffs with BigFoot models simply because the boat performed better overall.
1) What criteria do you use to decide it is time? Hours, maintenance costs, age, run it until it dies?
I Had an Etec 115hp with 600hours, ran perfect and I loved it. But Service and parts for would be an issue, if injector or ECM failed.
2) When you last repowered, what did you start with and what did you go to? Do you have a particular allegiance to specific brands or models?
Started with 2007 Etec 115hp and got 115 Hp Honda. I was not looking, however Honda some crazy rebates and the shop had even better deal. Really wanted a Yamaha but there is no way I was paying the Yamaha tax, LOL. So far I am blown away by the Honda. The Torque is way better than Etec. Don't notice the extra weight, it plans at slower speed. Fuel milage is wash. Honda 115 is a detuned 150 hp, so the most torque in a 115hp. The Honda is way quieter and smoother. Never thought the Etec was bad, but now there is no harmonics in the boat, it feels almost electric, blown away. LOL
3) Budget, if you are comfortable sharing
With selling The Etec, the upgrade cost me $10500 Canadian. That is the reason I did it, Etec was still worth money running, and now I have peace of mind.
4) What did you do yourself versus what you paid someone else to do?
All the Dealer did was hang the engine. I did everything myself and rewired and routed everything. I have seen my friends boat rigged after a re-power and its pretty badly done, because the tech is working on a time limit. But some of the things I have seen is very scary, wires rubbing on screws, loose hose clamps on fuel lines.
5) What would you do different next time?
Not listen to dealer on which hole position to mount engine.
6) What caught you by surprise?
Kicker Tie bar, how hard it is to get full steering from the front. Had Ez steer, but not safe to hang over the stern to install, with my young son. Ended up doing liquid tie bar which is expensive but worth every penny.
Quote from: Mustard tiger on April 19, 2024, 03:28:03 PM1) What criteria do you use to decide it is time? Hours, maintenance costs, age, run it until it dies?
I Had an Etec 115hp with 600hours, ran perfect and I loved it. But Service and parts for would be an issue, if injector or ECM failed.
2) When you last repowered, what did you start with and what did you go to? Do you have a particular allegiance to specific brands or models?
Started with 2007 Etec 115hp and got 115 Hp Honda. I was not looking, however Honda some crazy rebates and the shop had even better deal. Really wanted a Yamaha but there is no way I was paying the Yamaha tax, LOL. So far I am blown away by the Honda. The Torque is way better than Etec. Don't notice the extra weight, it plans at slower speed. Fuel milage is wash. Honda 115 is a detuned 150 hp, so the most torque in a 115hp. The Honda is way quieter and smoother. Never thought the Etec was bad, but now there is no harmonics in the boat, it feels almost electric, blown away. LOL
3) Budget, if you are comfortable sharing
With selling The Etec, the upgrade cost me $10500 Canadian. That is the reason I did it, Etec was still worth money running, and now I have peace of mind.
4) What did you do yourself versus what you paid someone else to do?
All the Dealer did was hang the engine. I did everything myself and rewired and routed everything. I have seen my friends boat rigged after a re-power and its pretty badly done, because the tech is working on a time limit. But some of the things I have seen is very scary, wires rubbing on screws, loose hose clamps on fuel lines.
5) What would you do different next time?
Not listen to dealer on which hole position to mount engine.
6) What caught you by surprise?
Kicker Tie bar, how hard it is to get full steering from the front. Had Ez steer, but not safe to hang over the stern to install, with my young son. Ended up doing liquid tie bar which is expensive but worth every penny.
Thanks for sharing, and nice to see someone else from Canada on here. How long ago was that repower? Honda is definitely in the running - probably the cheapest since the gauges and controls are included, and most chance of being able to reuse some of the stuff I already have. Not that many dealers on Vancouver Island though, and most of them are motorcycle/ATV shops, not marine shops. The one in town referred me to the same mechanic that has been servicing my existing motor for the rigging. I was already planning to talk to him anyway. Honda is also the heaviest, all though they are all close with the Suzuki being an outlier and another 10 lbs lighter than the rest of the pack. Excluding anything with less HP than 90 of course.
Thanks Tom C and JDB for the continued prop schooling. I am sure there will be many other questions in my future, but I'll start a thread specific to that if the time comes.
I'm also on Vancouver Island. Purchased from Campbell river boatland. Also talked to Bruce from bk marine. I was also very close to buying the Tohatsu 140hp I believe it's the same engine 75 to 140. They make tons of torque, Bruce also does the warranty. Went on 17 sea ranger with a 140, it flew.
Quote from: Mustard tiger on April 20, 2024, 01:05:44 PMI'm also on Vancouver Island. Purchased from Campbell river boatland. Also talked to Bruce from bk marine. I was also very close to buying the Tohatsu 140hp I believe it's the same engine 75 to 140. They make tons of torque, Bruce also does the warranty. Went on 17 sea ranger with a 140, it flew.
Haha Bruce is who has been servicing my boat and motor for the last 15 or so years. The last year for me, and for the previous owners before that. Also who VI Powersports referredme to for mounting. Already in talks with him.
Haha Bruce is who has been servicing my boat and motor for the last 15 or so years. The last year for me, and for the previous owners before that. Also who VI Powersports referredme to for mounting. Already in talks with him.
[/quote]
Too funny. I just got the Honda in February.
If I had a 19 instead of the 21, I would absolutely have that Tohatsu 140. Great design/engine architecture (by all accounts very efficient and torque plentiful powerplant), beautiful exterior, awesome color choice... Too bad they don't have a scaled up version in the 150 class.
This Website lets you look at Torque output of the outboards, Quite useful
https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/new-vehicle-and-engine-certification-executive-orders-my2023-spark-ignited-marine-engines
Quote from: Mustard tiger on April 22, 2024, 12:07:30 PMThis Website lets you look at Torque output of the outboards, Quite useful
https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/new-vehicle-and-engine-certification-executive-orders-my2023-spark-ignited-marine-engines
Great info!
Torque for the 90hp
-Honda 123 Newton-meters
-Suzuki 123
-Mercury 150
-Yamaha 143
Yami F75 has 128 n-m, Yami 115 155 n-m.
Honda 115, which is a much bigger motor (2.3L), 194 n-m.
1 newton-meter=0.74 ft-pounds.
Have a 19SRHT with alaskan bulkhead. Mine has a Honda 90hp with 1000hrs. As Danno say's it is barely broken in :clap: . I don't have a ton of hours on it myself. But have been pleasantly surprised on its performance. It also has a heavy Honda 8hp hi thrust xl shaft kicker and Lenco trim tabs.
an upgrade has crossed my mind. But have been going through some upgrades so that is not in the cards. If it was I would be looking at the 135/140hp class.
So I guess that would include the Honda, Suzuki and Tohatsu. Depending on weight I might think about a 150hp like the command thrust. For me, lighter is better.
If doing a 115hp I would definitely go Honda because that is what I have.
As far as criteria goes; age, maintenance, performance issues, hours, abuse/neglect would all factor in.
In your case specially I would stay in the 90hp or 115hp class and stay away from anything less.
Doing any of it yourself depends strictly what you are comfortable with.
My biggest fear is dealing with a shop where as you drive up to drop the boat off the seasoned guy who is the best rigger around just walked out the door pissed off and quit. and now the parts counter guy is up for your install :cha:
Quote from: Mustard tiger on April 22, 2024, 12:07:30 PMThis Website lets you look at Torque output of the outboards, Quite useful
https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/new-vehicle-and-engine-certification-executive-orders-my2023-spark-ignited-marine-engines
It should be noted that it is Peak Torque that is listed, and it is listed in newton/meters
Power is also listed, though in kilowatts, not horsepower. To covert kW to HP multiply by 1.34102
I think I am getting close to pulling the trigger. Unfortunately I just missed a great deal I was hipped to by someone on here, but that's life. Just trying to decide what steering upgrade fits the budget. I have the old school mechanical steering with feedback right now. At bare minimum I would go to NFB mechanical, but obviously hydraulic would be even better. Pretty significant price increase though, comparatively speaking. If it was a bigger hull and motor there would be no question, but on a 17 with a 90, how much better is it really going to be over NFB? Will I kick myself for cheaping out if I don't do it now?
Big price difference, yes. Figure about $300+ for a SeaStar NFB 4.2, and $900+ for a BayStar hydraulic.
The hydraulic will be smoother with less effort, but the other benefit of hydraulic is it allows the motor to be raised on the transom without cutting a new hole for a steering cable to run through.
Quote from: Tom C on April 23, 2024, 06:01:31 PMBig price difference, yes. Figure about $300+ for a SeaStar NFB 4.2, and $900+ for a BayStar hydraulic.
The hydraulic will be smoother with less effort, but the other benefit of hydraulic is it allows the motor to be raised on the transom without cutting a new hole for a steering cable to run through.
I guess TBD whether raising the motor up will be a benefit to me or not. I'm away from the boat for a couple days and don't really have a good pick on my phone of where it is at now. I heard there may be less maintenance down the road with the hydraulic too but not sure how much stock to put into that. As evidenced by recent threads on this site, seems they can break too.
Quote from: Tom C on April 23, 2024, 06:01:31 PMBig price difference, yes. Figure about $300+ for a SeaStar NFB 4.2, and $900+ for a BayStar hydraulic.
The hydraulic will be smoother with less effort, but the other benefit of hydraulic is it allows the motor to be raised on the transom without cutting a new hole for a steering cable to run through.
How long are you planning to keep the boat? Many owners celebrate the upgrade and wonder why they took so long to go hydraulic - but very, very few regret it. Especially if you're paying for labor, not a quick/easy job to do the swap, and the value/demand for used mechanical steering is very small. I had NFB on my last boat, and it was easier than basic push-pull, but in no way a substitute for Baystar. (If anyone wants my old Arima cable system, it's free....)
I think it's more likely to have the aft end of the cable freeze up than having an issue with the hydraulics. Parts are available for both the helm pump and the motor cylinder. Hoses seem to be a bit fragile, but generally due to , um, misuse? My maintenance for 3 years has been check the fluid once a year and top up once. No personal experience, but I understand that the Chinese knock-off hydraulic copies aren't a good solution, and parts would be a concern.
Quote from: davidsea on April 23, 2024, 06:35:22 PMQuote from: Tom C on April 23, 2024, 06:01:31 PMBig price difference, yes. Figure about $300+ for a SeaStar NFB 4.2, and $900+ for a BayStar hydraulic.
The hydraulic will be smoother with less effort, but the other benefit of hydraulic is it allows the motor to be raised on the transom without cutting a new hole for a steering cable to run through.
How long are you planning to keep the boat? Many owners celebrate the upgrade and wonder why they took so long to go hydraulic - but very, very few regret it. Especially if you're paying for labor, not a quick/easy job to do the swap, and the value/demand for used mechanical steering is very small. I had NFB on my last boat, and it was easier than basic push-pull, but in no way a substitute for Baystar. (If anyone wants my old Arima cable system, it's free....)
I imagine I'll be keeping this boat for maybe 10 years, until I am at an age where I can start thinking about retirement. But you never know when opportunity or 2-foot-itus will strike. This is the right size boat for me right now though. Easy to fish solo (presumably even more so with hydro strearing), big enough for the wife, dog and I and enough room for a friend when needed. No kids to worry about. Easy enough to tow and biggest boat that will fit in my boat parking spot in the driveway. Anything bigger would mean a different residence or moorage.
Hydraulic 100%. Well worth the investment. 2nd boat with it now, could not go back. You will not have the problem of cable Seizing over winter. All you need is baystar system.
When I was getting ready to replace my steering cable for I think the 4th time I decided it was time to upgrade to hydraulic. It was on my SR 17 with a Yamaha F90. It was one of those moments like going from neoprene to breathable waders when I said why didn't I do this sooner. I've got hydraulic on my 19 now with my 140 Tohatsu and love it just as much.
If your gonna repower go hydraulic Baystar. Worth every penny and you get some or most back on resale.
1) What criteria do you use to decide it is time? Hours, maintenance costs, age, run it until it dies?
- since becoming arima 17sr owner 4 years ago, I've discovered a deep joy for fishing in saltwater around San Juan Islands and soon, Canadian waters. I see more time exploring these waters when my son starts driving himself around.
- coming into this season, I've been using 2000 Yamaha 115hp 4 stroke. Got this motor after Evinrude ficht 115 died midway back from Sucia island to Blaine. I was lucky fishing buddy was with me on trip with his own boat. He towed me in.
- the Yami 115 got me back on water same month (middle of covid) so was ecstatic about that, but always felt uneasy about 23 yr old motor on 17-20 mile runs to fish.
- over the winter looked seriously at trading arima in for something aluminum vs repower, thinking it would bring more peace of mind. In the end, decided to repower after learning more about new motor technologies (also helpful that a few local marine techs encouraged me to keep using arima.
2) When you last repowered, what did you start with and what did you go to? Do you have a particular allegiance to specific brands or models?
- I had no allegiance to brand so was open. I originally was sold on new Suzuki 115hp with drive by wire, but couldn't after quite came in $6k over budget.
- local Yamaha dealer contacted me day after I was shocked by Suzuki quote about 2023 90hp vmax sho on special.
3) Budget, if you are comfortable sharing
- 12k or less
4) What did you do yourself versus what you paid someone else to do?
- I bought the Yamaha 90vmax sho and saved $$ using existing rigging. I didn't know new motors could be plug and play!
5) What would you do different next time?
- I would first look at newer motors that can connect to existing rigging for cost savings.
6) What caught you by surprise?
- the amazing performance of 90hp motor with 14x15 turbo 1 SS prop. All I knew was 115hp on 17sr. The current setup is more responsive and powerful than 2000 115 motor(I was likely underpropped for past 3 yrs).
- the older 703 control box, standard mechanical cables and gauges work great with new motor!
7) Is there anything specific to know about repowering an Arima versus any other boat?
- propeller selection seems to be important for our stern heavy boats. I think it's worthwhile to test a couple different ones to dial it in.
Quote from: Dai20bt on May 01, 2024, 10:43:56 AM1) What criteria do you use to decide it is time? Hours, maintenance costs, age, run it until it dies?
- since becoming arima 17sr owner 4 years ago, I've discovered a deep joy for fishing in saltwater around San Juan Islands and soon, Canadian waters. I see more time exploring these waters when my son starts driving himself around.
- coming into this season, I've been using 2000 Yamaha 115hp 4 stroke. Got this motor after Evinrude ficht 115 died midway back from Sucia island to Blaine. I was lucky fishing buddy was with me on trip with his own boat. He towed me in.
- the Yami 115 got me back on water same month (middle of covid) so was ecstatic about that, but always felt uneasy about 23 yr old motor on 17-20 mile runs to fish.
- over the winter looked seriously at trading arima in for something aluminum vs repower, thinking it would bring more peace of mind. In the end, decided to repower after learning more about new motor technologies (also helpful that a few local marine techs encouraged me to keep using arima.
2) When you last repowered, what did you start with and what did you go to? Do you have a particular allegiance to specific brands or models?
- I had no allegiance to brand so was open. I originally was sold on new Suzuki 115hp with drive by wire, but couldn't after quite came in $6k over budget.
- local Yamaha dealer contacted me day after I was shocked by Suzuki quote about 2023 90hp vmax sho on special.
3) Budget, if you are comfortable sharing
- 12k or less
4) What did you do yourself versus what you paid someone else to do?
- I bought the Yamaha 90vmax sho and saved $$ using existing rigging. I didn't know new motors could be plug and play!
5) What would you do different next time?
- I would first look at newer motors that can connect to existing rigging for cost savings.
6) What caught you by surprise?
- the amazing performance of 90hp motor with 14x15 turbo 1 SS prop. All I knew was 115hp on 17sr. The current setup is more responsive and powerful than 2000 115 motor(I was likely underpropped for past 3 yrs).
- the older 703 control box, standard mechanical cables and gauges work great with new motor!
7) Is there anything specific to know about repowering an Arima versus any other boat?
- propeller selection seems to be important for our stern heavy boats. I think it's worthwhile to test a couple different ones to dial it in.
You and I have basically the same boat - I am also in an 87 Sea Ranger. If you make it up to Vancouver Island this season maybe they can have a play date.
I bit the bullet today and put the deposit down on a repower for mine too. Going with a Honda 100, and as per consensus going to hydraulic steering in the process. I was thinking Suzuki originally too, but the cost for controls and gauges vs the fact that they are included in the Honda price made the difference. Also the fact I can source the Honda through my local marine mechanic, who has serviced this boat for 15 years before I bought it. The Zuki I would have had to pay more and tow about 2 hours down the highway both for the install and ongoing service. Worth it to me to maintain relationships with the local guy I know and trust - as they say, you can't buy experience.
And hey, it won't be the first Arima rolling with a Honda main - won't even be the first Honda on this boat, since as mentioned earlier in this thread its an older carbed 75hp Honda coming off.
Congratulations on the repower! You are going to enjoy it and not regret it. I finally had time after work yesterday to experience how my reborn SR would do on 15 mile run for lingcod opener. As I said earlier, you'll have no regrets:) It feels like a new boat to me as I was cruising 23mph at 3900rpm in smooth water. I feel like I'm riding higher out of the water also! The splash issue I had last summer after installing lenco trim tabs has disappeared. I thought my diy install was causing a lot of splashing hitting my fully tilted kicker. The 90vmax sho with turbo 1 prop is generating more stern lift to resolve that annoyance. Cruising at 23mph vs 17 feels huge to me in time savings to destination. So glad I repowered! Then to top it off, brought dinner home to the fam:)
QuoteI bit the bullet today and put the deposit down on a repower for mine too. Going with a Honda 100...
The BF100 is an excellent choice. Just be sure the dealer/mechanic does not mount the motor too low on the transom.
Quote from: Tom C on May 04, 2024, 06:50:45 PMQuoteI bit the bullet today and put the deposit down on a repower for mine too. Going with a Honda 100...
The BF100 is an excellent choice. Just be sure the dealer/mechanic does not mount the motor too low on the transom.
Weird, I swear I responded to this comment yesterday and posted successfully but those posts appear to be gone? Anyway, I will have the mounting height discussion with my mechanic, who is also who I am getting the motor through. He did not mount my current motor, but that is mounted one hole up (ie 2nd hole from the top). I've not put a straight edge on the hull to see where the cavitation plate is in relation yet, but I can do so. I suspect he will mount the new one in the same position unless I specifically request otherwise - but as I said haven't talked to him about it yet.
QuoteWeird, I swear I responded to this comment yesterday and posted successfully but those posts appear to be gone?
You did, and they are. Somebody deleted them.
Quote from: Tom C on May 05, 2024, 08:43:24 AMQuoteWeird, I swear I responded to this comment yesterday and posted successfully but those posts appear to be gone?
You did, and they are. Somebody deleted them.
Yeah, and I think I know why. I'll keep the comments to the technical aspects of the discussion.
One other thing I forgot to mention, the BF100 requires 91 octane fuel, whereas the BF90 only needs 86 octane.
Depending on where you fuel your boat, that may be something to consider.
The difference in top speed between the two models would be slightly less than 2 MPH between the two.
Quote from: Tom C on May 05, 2024, 08:54:52 AMOne other thing I forgot to mention, the BF100 requires 91 octane fuel, whereas the BF90 only needs 86 octane.
Depending on where you fuel your boat, that may be something to consider.
The difference in top speed between the two models would be slightly less than 2 MPH between the two.
Yes I am aware of that. Also weighs a couple pounds more than the 90. Weirdly, the price is better on the 100 than the 90, so that's the plan. Vast majority of time I fuel the boat at the station nearest my house, which sells 91 marked no ethanol. For now - sounds like no ethanol gas is on borrowed time here in Canada. The only time it might become a problem is when I go cruising or stay at a marina that only offers 87. I guess I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
i have not read all of this thread. I recall Davidsea talking about this iirc. My recollection is the 100hp is a smaller litter than the 90hp. Make sure you know what you are getting in the 100hp model. The 90hp might be a better fit than the 100hp, I could be wrong on this, but don't think so.
If I am correct it can be a bit like splitting a 30" round of firewood with a splitting maul vs and splitting axe. One is way better suited for the task than the other.
If I am not correct about the 100 vs 90 plz disregard and congrats on the new power.
The Honda BF75, BF90, and BF100 are, like a lot of outboards, based on the same motor, with different power outputs coming from different ECU programming. It may be the BF100 has a more advanced timing setting, along with greater air input, so more prone to detonation, hence the need for high octane fuel.
When I glanced at the tables that included torque last week, I don't think there was a material difference between the 90 and the 100. May be worth a look. But if the 100 is less expensive and the only penalty for running 87 octane is less power, seems attractive.
Dave
QuoteBut if the 100 is less expensive and the only penalty for running 87 octane is less power, seems attractive.
I would not assume less power is the only penalty. Knock sensors *can* work great, but long term use? Don't want to fry a brand new $10k outboard.
Here is a timely comment from a different web site yesterday:
QuoteHere is what a dealer told me he is selling a 2022 BF 100. I asked if using less than 91 was detrimental to anything other than performance
It doesn't like it long term. The previous owner tried to and we had to do an internal carbon clean It ran fine after that.
He then swapped to the 90 because he couldn't get 91 easily enough where he boated.
Quote from: Tom C on May 05, 2024, 10:20:31 AMHere is a timely comment from a different web site yesterday:
QuoteHere is what a dealer told me he is selling a 2022 BF 100. I asked if using less than 91 was detrimental to anything other than performance
It doesn't like it long term. The previous owner tried to and we had to do an internal carbon clean It ran fine after that.
He then swapped to the 90 because he couldn't get 91 easily enough where he boated.
The key words here I think are "long term". My mechanic doesn't seem to think running the odd tank of 87 if no other option will hurt it, and he would be the one that has to service it if it does. This is a trailer boat, and 91 is readily available at normal gas stations in my area. Probably the only time I will have a problem is if I go for a multi day trip and am depending on marina fuel, and even there I think a lot of them have 91 around here. I have even thought about carrying some "octane boost" as a work around,but would need to do some research on that. The mechanic didn't think it was necessary.
I don't disagree, but as always, I make these comments not because I'm trying to dissuade you, but for the benefit of others reading along now, or in the future while doing research. It's just something to be aware of.
Quote from: Tom C on May 05, 2024, 12:40:39 PMI don't disagree, but as always, I make these comments not because I'm trying to dissuade you, but for the benefit of others reading along now, or in the future while doing research. It's just something to be aware of.
Yep, not dismissing the advice at all. Just noting that I have considered it and I think I'm making an informed choice. Definitely could be useful info for someone else in the future, which was the intent of the thread after all.
Just in case it's helpful, here are some images of the mounting height of my Honda 90. Sportcraft in PDX, a former Arima dealer and very knowledgeable about the boats, did the install. My stern isn't as deep as most Arima 17s because I have considerable weight up front--batteries in the cuddy a drum winch, and now a pilot house--I've never had ventilation issues.
Dave
Thanks DARice. That looks pretty much the same as the way my 75 is mounted currently.
My 06 17' Chaser with Honda 90 is mounted in the same position as above. :)
I was over at the storage yard yesterday and put a straightedge on the keel of my 17 Sea Ranger.
The Yamaha F70 is mounted two holes up, and it *still* needs to go up another hole.
My AV plate at that mounting height was a good 2.5 inches below the water level while on plane... I had it reposition but haven't been able to get out on the water since (job#1 and turkey season)...
Quote from: Tom C on May 06, 2024, 05:57:49 AMI was over at the storage yard yesterday and put a straightedge on the keel of my 17 Sea Ranger.
The Yamaha F70 is mounted two holes up, and it *still* needs to go up another hole.
Very interesting pictures. I think mine might resemble that too. I'm foreseeing a new thread on this topic (mine).
My boat runs pretty nice (IMO). But, sometimes I do feel like it could be better than it is. Seeing all these threads on props and mount height are starting to have me second-guessing my current set-up.
I'll likely wait until I get the chance to take the boat out in good/calm conditions (probably on a lake to eliminate tide/current influence) and take notes of running numbers. I want to have a good set of baseline data before I start asking for advice/help.
For collecting data, I now use my phone and an app called Videometer. It is nothing but an overlay of speed, direction, and GPS position on a video. It is an extremely useful tool.
Back in the day, when I was starting out with propellers, I used a knee board and a paper sheet I had designed for jotting down speed at each increment of engine speed. It was a little dicey, especially when operating solo and approaching 50 MPH.
The beautiful thing about a video recording is that you focus on driving the boat because you look at the data later at home, and, if you do test runs on reciprocal headings to average the results, you take all the BS out of it, because you can just show somebody how your boat performs, instead of telling them and hoping they believe you.
Here is an example of top speed testing from several years ago (not an Arima)
https://youtu.be/chBijDkXwbo?si=PnuigKNzHDMsl-yK
I was reading up a bit on the mounting height thing, and one article was talking about slight variations in shaft length. IE a 20" shaft that is actually closer to 21". I am assuming the transom height from Arima to Arima in the same size range doesn't vary that much, but I wonder how much the variations in shaft length are playing in to these comparisons?
Quote from: Tom C on May 06, 2024, 05:46:10 PMFor collecting data, I now use my phone and an app called Videometer. It is nothing but an overlay of speed, direction, and GPS position on a video. It is an extremely useful tool.
Back in the day, when I was starting out with propellers, I used a knee board and a paper sheet I had designed for jotting down speed at each increment of engine speed. It was a little dicey, especially when operating solo and approaching 50 MPH.
The beautiful thing about a video recording is that you focus on driving the boat because you look at the data later at home, and, if you do test runs on reciprocal headings to average the results, you take all the BS out of it, because you can just show somebody how your boat performs, instead of telling them and hoping they believe you.
Here is an example of top speed testing from several years ago (not an Arima)
https://youtu.be/chBijDkXwbo?si=PnuigKNzHDMsl-yK
Does the video need to show the water? Or do I just need video of the numbers. I was actually thinking of trying to set up (or have help with) the phone to record my gauge while running. Would a video readout of this be adequate? (MPH is GPS pulled from the Garmin)
20240330_153128.jpg
No, you can video anything you want. I often aim the phone at my tachometer or multifunction display. You could do the same.
Well, got the call my new Honda will be in next week. Have taken this week off (planned) to do some early season fishing up near Campbell River, BC. Wind is blowing up this afternoon so I guess yesterday's outing was the last one on my current Honda 75. Kind of bittersweet to see it coming off, it performed without issue as it has since I bought the boat. Inching up to 3400 hours based on my hour meter, so she has definitely paid her dues and doesn't owe anyone a thing. I'm getting $1000 trade in credit from my mechanic for it.
Conditions were exceptionally calm yesterday so I got to do some WOT running and actually record some rough data. May be of relevance since the plan is to start with this same prop on the new Honda 100 and then go from there. These are rough measures, my tach is analog needle so don't get precise RPM's. Speed is SOG on my Lowrance, and represents the best I achieved. Some help from trim tabs to get there, which I am still learning how to use in conjunction with motor trim. Boat loaded pretty close to as heavy as I will likely ever run it.
WOT - 5200rpm, 28.5mph
4500rpm, 24mph
4000rpm, 22mph