I, and others, have discussed the Arima's rough ride in chop before, but, after yesterday, I thought it worth bringing up again.
Woody, a colleague and I went sturgeon fishing yesterday in my 19SC. This was the first trip in it after installing my smart tabs.
As we were moving across nearly flat conditions, Woody remarked how much smoother the boat was riding that the last time we had it out in similar conditions. Later in the day, with a modest chop, it was even more noticeable.
The spray was coming from under the hull at the 20 to 25% mark rather than the 30 to 50% mark it had been without the tabs. Does not sound like much, however, it is enough to get the V in the hull engaged instead of running, and pounding, on a flat bottom.
It is our opinion that there is nothing you could do to your boat, in the $100 to $150 range that would improve the comfort, and efficiency of operation, of running your boat.
We discussed electric and hydraulic tabs that are adjustable in the cockpit. However, most folks with those systems (that we have observed) usually find a setting they like and then seldom move them. Others move them a lot. Then again you are talking considerable more than $100 to $150 for the system and have yet another electric or hydraulic system to maintain.
So, hopefully next someone posts about rough ride and poor hole shot (my 19SC planes at 12.6 mph with around 700# of passengers and their gear, butts on the seats) they will remember the cure is pretty cheap.
StreamFixer
There's No Doubt At all...jury is in..
ALL Arima's Should have at least Smart tabs..other wise it's pound and more pound.. :yeahthat:
I have heard that for years,
when referring to Arima boats in my many discussions about boat types with my customers and friends..
the main Complaint about these boats, is they pound and are Pricey ,cause there's not much else to complain about.. :biggrin:
so when I discovered trim tabs... my life just got much smother..and I love my little Fat boat..and I adjust them at every run depending on the water conditions and weight
distribution..
and then with an older hull..SMART RAIL A MUST HAVE..Soooooo much drier...and more stable in large waves and swells as in Bar crossings and Rough weather..
wouldn't have another older Arima without them... :yeahthat:
my :twocents:
CGBE
:yeahthat: So much for the Sermon and Testimonial on trim tab. How Was The Fishing ??? And where did you go ????
H-T
Russ, I think I recall you went with the 80 lb actuators on your 17 - did you do the same on your 19?
johan
H-T
Fishing was gorgeous, beautiful day with great buddies.
We fished out of Grey's River on the Columbia. For non-Oregons, that is basically slightly east and across the river (Washington side) of Astoria.
That area has a lot of shallow areas so it does take a bit to thread the needle to get to the "freeways" where Sturgeon play at low tide. All crew members keep a sharp lookout for changes on water surface and depth alarm is set with one set of eyes on the DF. Not hard to go slightly left or right of the markers (placed 15 years ago so a bit "iffy") and find yourself aproaching 3 feet. Muddy botom, but still walking through glass. Fish in 20-30 feet of water under stern with sand scrimp. First timers ... take an orientation with an experienced skipper and put lots of markers on your screen.
We didn't catch anything (no pictures posted , so nothing happened... Russ is processing). But IF something happened it was one around 4' (book says ?33 lbs?) and one around 5' (book says ?64? lbs). The smallest and the largest in keeper sturgeons.
When Russ process the snaps and we post I will change this from NUTTIN happened to SOMETING happened.
Did talk to FinFinn on the phone who had just started fishing about 10-15 miles north of the Columbia. At that time he said four hook ups with one keeper. Salmon.
Woody
Quote from: Enniberg on June 15, 2012, 08:51:20 AM
Russ, I think I recall you went with the 80 lb actuators on your 17 - did you do the same on your 19?
johan
Yes, quite adequate. Probably more than needed on the 17 with it's present lighter motor(s) (Honda 90 & 8 w/o electrics vs Yamaha 115 & T-8 with electrics).
Made the port tab stiffer by 1 notch and starboard softer by one notch. Balanced well, but with 2 folks on one side and only 1 on the other, still a bad list. Simple solution, have one of the other guys move to center and 'Walla' you are now in trim.
StreamFixer
Quote from: StreamFixer on June 15, 2012, 10:00:43 AM
Balanced well, but with 2 folks on one side and only 1 on the other, still a bad list. Simple solution, have one of the other guys move to center and 'Walla' you are now in trim.
StreamFixer
now why didn't I think of that..Trimable fishing partners.. duH :doh:
Quote from: CanvasGuy on June 15, 2012, 10:05:57 AM
Quote from: StreamFixer on June 15, 2012, 10:00:43 AM
Trimable fishing partners.. duH :doh:
I could use some 'trimming'. Maybe I could fit through Grizzles eyebrow window then :whistle: :jester:
StreamFixer
I just poke my fishing partner in the side and he knows to move left. Trimming the other way, I move right.
I have the hydraulic tabs which do work well but they have auto-retract when the ingnition is switch off so I always have to reset each time I fire up the main. Kind of a pain. I've considered adding the angle indicators but the cost. IE they think an a lot of their indicators.
I don't know what brand of tabs you have Kim - but on the Lenco's the auto-retract is controlled by the orange wire. Unplug that, and no more issues with having to reset every time you turn the motor on.
Quote from: ak-angler on June 15, 2012, 02:35:49 PM
I don't know what brand of tabs you have Kim - but on the Lenco's the auto-retract is controlled by the orange wire. Unplug that, and no more issues with having to reset every time you turn the motor on.
Thanks AK. I have Benett's which has a separate module for the auto-retract. It should be an easy unplug also but knowing me I'd probably forget and ding the tab putting the boat on the trailer. I did turn 60 a bit over a week ago...bring on the GINKO!! I don't mind spending money on the boat but it just irks me that the cost for a rocker switch with some LEDs to show tab angle is $263 at BOE!! Holy Schmoly!!
Is there a brand preference?
Quote from: FISHSTALKER on June 15, 2012, 06:27:11 PM
Is there a brand preference?
If you are asking about the smart tabs, I am only aware of one manufacturer. http://www.nauticusinc.com/smart_tabs.htm they have a chart for choosing the appropriate tab for your boat based on length.
As far as electric or hydraulic tabs ...... I am Sgt Schultz.... :shrug9:
StreamFixer
I only know of two of the powered tabs. Benett's which are hydraulic and Lenco which are electric. There are probably more makers out there but I don't know of them. As what is best, electric or hydraulic I'm Schultzie's twin.
The Smart tabs sure has it's appeal. Tweak, set and forget or at least that's what it sounds like. So far I'm a bit confused where my hydraulic tabs are when I start pushing the switches. Get it where the boat feels ok but in a bit of sloppy weather it's hard to tell if I'm in the sweet spot. Then you have the tilt of the engine that also comes in to play. Engine tilt really does have a lot of affect on my boat. I think I just need more experience with them to figure how to best run them. I suppose forking over the $$$ for the switches that tell the tab position would help.
Oh yeah...What Russ said. Pushing the bow down some really helps the ride with our boats....a lot.
In regard to adjustable trim tabs, Bennet and Lenco are the two big players. But there are others. Insta Trim (http://www.insta-trim.com/) makes hydraulic tabs, and Lectrotab (http://www.lectrotab.com/) makes electric units.
Does anyone make a pair of hybrid tabs that are dynamic like smart tabs and also have a manual adjust capability?
Another new product?
The insta-trim 12x8 are the ones the Arima factory uses. This is what I installed, around $300 if I remember correctly.
I have Bennets on my 17... they are awesome. Adjustable is nice as I can trim the boat out based on the weight of the passengers.... or if I am alone.. No annoying list !!
GoodDays Greg
I noticed that there are different sizes for different boats.....insofar as the Smart Tabs go...what is the consensus for the right size for the SR 19? I dont' have any room in the back sponson lockers for anything other than batteries and the TR-1 hydraulic brain and gallon Oil tank. the Smart Tabs seemed to be the easiest and most economical way to go...provided they can actually do the job. They're in essence a "dumb terminal" in that you set them for a designated tension according to the weight distribution of the boat.....but if you happen to pick up another "large passenger" or some additional gear, you might find that the settings you originally put them at aren't taking care of the problem. This means that you have to go ashore or to a dock and readjust the tension on the actuators to compensate for the new weight distribution....whereas with the Bennett or Lenco, you can adjust from the helm???
For those of you running Smart Tabs....how do you find the changes in weight distribution affects the list on the boat? When you run into that problem....do you just ask folks to shift over to the other side?? Because that is what I do without the tabs...and the boat levels out. I think what I want is to be able to stabilize the list without having to manually hang over the side or go into the dock to change the settings. How difficult is it to change the settings if you're out in the middle of the lake or whatever.???
I Have
LENCO 12X9 with indicator switch.
Tabs Mounted close set to sponsoons as 1/2 inch.. inboard
Done and Done..NO more problems..
only 600.$ worth of Wave riding pleasure and no more annoying lists.. :yeahthat:
As Stated many times...Many ways..
These Arimas All NEED TABS..NO doubt.. Just How much is it worth to make a Great Boat Really shine..?
as for the Price and that seems to drive most of you...
you may find a set without switch indicators cheap as some sets of Smart tabs...
and you can adjust on the fly..as should be..
OR get Smart Tabs And Adjustable Boat HO's...
and live with it..
MY :twocents:
CGBE
CG: Is the 12 inches the measurement of the length it would take up on the transom and the 9 the depth of the tab? I would really prefer a shorter run against the transom...dont' have to drill more holes to move transducers etc. Currently running two transducers....took the paddle wheel off since GPS handles speed along with the pitot tube.
I ordered my boat from the factory with the trim tabs so I don't know how it handles without them but after having (and riding) in other boats without them, I knew I wanted them on mine. Some research I did included this info from the Bennett site, yes it's a bit skewed towards hydraulics over electric but the reasons and the sizing chart seem helpful. :twocents:
http://bennetttrimtabs.com/guidetotrimtabs.php
http://bennetttrimtabs.com/trimtabkits.php?cID=1
I also like the ability to be able to adjust 'on the fly' if needed.
Rick
CJ
If the choice is between paddle wheel and pitot tube, I would take the wheel every time. The gps will indeed give you speed over the ground, but not through the water. The pitot tube will not engage until you are above 10 mph and is highly inaccurate. The paddles will give you through the water speed at all speeds, great for dialing in your trolling speed.
StreamFixer
Quote from: Chuck Jones on June 19, 2012, 07:06:13 AM
CG: Is the 12 inches the measurement of the length it would take up on the transom and the 9 the depth of the tab? I would really prefer a shorter run against the transom...dont' have to drill more holes to move transducers etc. Currently running two transducers....took the paddle wheel off since GPS handles speed along with the pitot tube.
Yes 12"I moved transducer to starboard sponsoon.. works great but shoot thru hull is good also. glue down in bilge my next move.
The Airmar P66 transducer that comes bundled with a lot of the mid-grade sonar units these days has an integrated paddle wheel.
I have my Lowrance transducer installed on the port side sponson (attached to a piece of starboard). I have the P66 for the Raymarine installed just to the left of my starboard side trim tab (in between it and the drain tube) also attached to a piece of starboard. So far, that installation has been rock solid, with no loss of signal or fuzzyness due to turbulence.
That's good to hear. I've wanted to put on trim tabs, but wondered about relocating the transducers closer to the engine. I thought there'd be a problem with turbulence that would affect the signal....which, according to your installation, you find that it doesn't.
Stream Fixer: Too late....I ended up cutting off the wiring for the paddle wheel and pulled it out when I went to the new Lowrance HDS 5. I had several transducers there from old mounts...one lying in the spashwell that the PO had installed then pulled off. I had too dogone many old doo-dads there, and the paddle wheel went to an older LMS 350 unit and the plug wouldn't fit the new HDS...so I had to pull it out. Rather than futz around cutting zip wraps etc from the wiring loom, I just cut the wire in several places and pulled it out. I'm not real patient when it comes to things like this....I'd love to rewire like Danno and T2 did, but what patience and expertise that would take, neither of which I possess.
For trolling speeds, I have one of those Luhr Jensen Trolling speed indicators that attaches to the gunwale on the starboard side. That gives me a pretty good indicator of trolling speeds, and the TR-1 Gold can be set to very accurately hit just the right speed, plus it has the MOB button that instantly reduces the speed on the T9 to barely moving to maintain heading while you're bringing in your fish, then hit it again and it resumes the previous trolling speed. Good setup for me but it's not very effective in a strong wind.
Quote from: StreamFixer on June 15, 2012, 08:07:36 AM
I, and others, have discussed the Arima's rough ride in chop before, but, after yesterday, I thought it worth bringing up again.
Woody, a colleague and I went sturgeon fishing yesterday in my 19SC. This was the first trip in it after installing my smart tabs.
As we were moving across nearly flat conditions, Woody remarked how much smoother the boat was riding that the last time we had it out in similar conditions. Later in the day, with a modest chop, it was even more noticeable.
The spray was coming from under the hull at the 20 to 25% mark rather than the 30 to 50% mark it had been without the tabs. Does not sound like much, however, it is enough to get the V in the hull engaged instead of running, and pounding, on a flat bottom.
It is our opinion that there is nothing you could do to your boat, in the $100 to $150 range that would improve the comfort, and efficiency of operation, of running your boat.
We discussed electric and hydraulic tabs that are adjustable in the cockpit. However, most folks with those systems (that we have observed) usually find a setting they like and then seldom move them. Others move them a lot. Then again you are talking considerable more than $100 to $150 for the system and have yet another electric or hydraulic system to maintain.
So, hopefully next someone posts about rough ride and poor hole shot (my 19SC planes at 12.6 mph with around 700# of passengers and their gear, butts on the seats) they will remember the cure is pretty cheap.
StreamFixer
With my 16' SC being a little under powered the "Smart tabs" have helped considerably with the boat getting on plane. I just got back from Lake Billy Chinook with my my in-laws and some friends for Father's day. I was able to get on a plane around 11 knots with 3 men aboard, and with a full tank of gas with the 45hp Honda. Two of us are pushing 225 lb on a light day of eating and the other around 200 plus.
They definitely make a difference on getting on plane and smoothing out the ride. I have mine at a notch less than middle and that seems to work fine. It does not help with listing, but in either case without them I would have the same issue.
(http://arimaboatownersgroup.com/gallery/3/15_19_06_12_1_05_35.jpeg)
VT
I was ready to buy the Smart Tabs, but then was told that they're primarily for getting on plane and bringing down or raising the bow according to sea conditions. I find the trim of the engine along with the Dolfin I have on the cavitation plate does that nicely. The issue I have is LIST...and since the Smart Tabs self adjust, it seems to me that they wouldn't help correct a list condition...but you'd need something like either the Bennett or Lencos to put the proper amount of downpressure on the downside to correct the list. The ST's don't look like they'd do that because of the self-adjusting actuators. Please advise if you run the ST's and have seen them correct a list problem.
cj
VT - Very nice photo.
Chuck, the Smart Tabs are very different than what you can do with just the engine trim. You can get the bow down far lower (for cutting into wind chop) than you can with just the engine trim, and you get on plane far faster/easier, particularly with heavy loads. You are also able to hold plane down to lower speeds (very important for those of us who fish in big water). I can stay on plane at 12-14 mph in nasty wind chop and big swells... without the Smart Tabs I fall off at 16-18 mph.
Sort of the difference between having steering, and having power steering.
Re: list... if the condition is permanent (batteries, kicker, etc... on one side) you can adjust the Smart Tab on that side to have more resistance, which will help somewhat to compensate for it. By moving the point on the tab where the hydraulic "shock" connects, you can increase or decrease resistance, and the tabs can be adjusted independently of each other. However, they are not as good as manual tabs for this.
Where manual tabs really shine to me is 1) adjusting boat trim to compensate for wind chop or swells hitting the boat from an angle, and 2) being able to retract the tabs completely in a big following sea (like a bar crossing). That said, most everyone I know who has tabs on the big boat generally forgets to use or adjust them until they have a problem, and they cost 3-4 times what Smart Tabs do.
On a bigger Arima (19+) that does a lot of ocean fishing, I'd go with manual tabs. On a small Arima that mostly sees protected water use, or some limited ocean use on good days, I think the Smart Tabs are awesome.
3 WT: Thanks for the explanation....but the issue I'm faced with is one of changing weight distributions. Most of the time I just fish with one other person....I don't like a lot of clutter in the back or people tripping over each other. The size and weight of the individual or several people is what throws off the boat's balance and I get the list to port.
If I'm out alone, it doesn't seem to list, but just one person sitting in the seat on the port side creates a definite list....and as I've indicated in previous discussions, I have no room in either the port or starboard sponson storage compartments for anything other than the two batteries on the starboard side and the oil reservoir, TR-1 hydraulics and "brain" and a Dual Pro battery charger stuffed into the port side....so I have to go with some sort of trim tab that doesn't require more room....hence either the Lenco electrics, or the Smart Tabs.
What I really need is the ability to adjust the list according to the number and weight of the passengers....which can vary. My three girls just want to cruise in the bathing suits and wave at guys....my brother wants to fish (6'2" and 220)....so the weight on primarily the port side is where people migrate to...that's where the seating is....and that's where the list occurs...most likely contributed to by the weight of the FS Yami T9 and hydraulic lift on that side also. I'm confident that the ST's would correct some of the arse end weight of the 48 gallon gas tank, the 150 Yami + the T9, two batteries, and the stuff in the port storage....but it's the list that gets me aggravated. Will the ST's handle that variation in weight distribution?
The Smart Tabs won't work well for the situation you describe, you'd have to adjust the setting on the port side tab before every trip. I think the Lenco electrics would work best for you. Because they are electric, you don't have the big hydraulic pump to mount.
Might also consider adding a cooler with a cushion on top behind your helm seat, and having some folks sit there to help adjust the ride when you need it.
Thanx again....on the hunt for some Lencos....good idea about the cooler chest with a cushion on it...Since I have full deck canvas, they don't all try to get shade under the hard top and can spread out.
Chuck,
Your question and 3wt's response are right on about the variable loads side to side. I have the ST's on my 19 and with the T8 kicker on the port side I can count on the boat listing to port so I have the port ST down one notch. If I have any passenger- large or small they will need to shift to the center a bit, plus I have my tackle box on the starboard along with most of the weight in the cuddy. As 3wt also mentioned, to fine tune I just slide the 100 qt ice chest to one side a bit.
I'd prefer to have trim tabs, but with just a little team effort weight balance is very doable with the ST's.
Mark
VT,
What size smart tabs do you have on your boat? I also have an SC16/Honda45 and am considering smart tabs.
Hawkeye
I would recommend you follow Smart Tabs' sizing chart. Going from memory you will probably be looking at 60's
StreamFixer
First, Welcome aboard!
Second, Thank you SF for speaking on my behalf. I will remember you next time for negotiations with the wife. :biggrin:
Third, yes I have the 60 series for my SC. I went back and forth between the 40 and 60, and I think I have made the right choice. I don't think you can go wrong with them. I had the hydrofoil on and it is a big difference between the two. I was able to get it for around 85.00 at West Marine with a price match from one of the online retailers (105.00) and couple of 10.00 rebate checks.
It was a better deal than their 20.00 off anything over a 100.00 BoatUS members night.
VT a.k.a an SF wannabe... Nothing but love for you Russ!
Quote from: Vancouvertechie on June 21, 2012, 09:51:11 AM
Second, Thank you SF for speaking on my behalf. I will remember you next time for negotiations with the wife. :biggrin:
VT a.k.a an SF wannabe... Nothing but love for you Russ!
:biggrin: :yeahthat: :hoboy: :stooges: YOU GUYS CRACK ME UP...
Markshorline: I just bought a set of Lencos with the LCD switch rather than the standard up/down one so I can see the tab position...so my debate on Smart Tabs vs Bennetts or Lencos is over. I negotiated a deal of $100 for the new LCD switch with auto retract (which I may disconnect)...which is usually around $250-300. I'll finally get rid of the pesky list. The mounting base on the trim tab will help me cover up some of the holes in the transom caused by the installation of paddle wheel and different transducers over the years. I think I'm about done with projects for a while....unless Liverwurst comes up with something I jes gotsta' have. He's definitely been a bad influence on my VISA.
Chuck.. good derision and good score on the price also.. I made mine switchable at the dash
so the auto retract is an option if I switch it off, it auto retracts.. if not it stays..no problem..
Quote from: Chuck Jones on June 21, 2012, 03:27:43 PM
The mounting base on the trim tab will help me cover up some of the holes in the transom caused by the installation of paddle wheel and different transducers over the years.
Not to change the subject away from tabs but what is the best way to plug up those holes? A screw or bolt with 5200? Plug it with epoxy? A wood plug with epoxy? Plug with 5200 and then screw/caulk a starboard or uhmw doubler over it so you can have a mounting plate for the tabs and ducers. When I get home next I have a 1000 watt ducer that I will install but will have to remove an old Garmin ducer that doesn't work so I want to plug the holes correctly.
Epoxe mixed with wood powder works great and you can top it off with gelcoat and get a factory finish look. Need to inject it up into the hole with a syringe, though.
Chuck, I think you made a good decision with the Lencos. I'll install those too but won't do it during salmon season which starts in TEN DAYS!!! Then Dungeness crabs!!!
Couple of ocean days in there this summer!!! Then silvers!!! You get the picture...no more driveway time for me.
Mark
Marine Tex. UV-staiblized epoxy pre-mixed with fillers. Just at the catalyst, mix, and use. Comes in white or gray, you can tint the white using the gel coat tints to try and get a color match.
Once it hardens, you can sand it down even with the gel coat, and wax it.
CG: Me no unnerstand: You made yours switchable at the dash....that's where the LCD module is supposed to be. I'll be doing some sort of in-dash mount for it. It comes with enough wire to reach a dash mount...if not, then I'll just add some....but I don't get the auto-retract part. I read earlier on one of these discussions about auto retract and how it can be a PIA sometimes. Some guys unplug the wire that goes to that feature.
When you say you made it switchable....do you have the standard switch with just the up/down logo on it, or do you have the LCD one? I don't know if the LCD one has some sort of option built in to defeat the auto retract....but if not....how did you make it switchable?
chuck
Quote from: Chuck Jones on June 22, 2012, 08:35:39 AM
CG: Me no unnerstand: You made yours switchable at the dash....that's where the LCD module is supposed to be. I'll be doing some sort of in-dash mount for it. It comes with enough wire to reach a dash mount...if not, then I'll just add some....but I don't get the auto-retract part. I read earlier on one of these discussions about auto retract and how it can be a PIA sometimes. Some guys unplug the wire that goes to that feature.
When you say you made it switchable....do you have the standard switch with just the up/down logo on it, or do you have the LCD one? I don't know if the LCD one has some sort of option built in to defeat the auto retract....but if not....how did you make it switchable?
chuck
on the instructions I believe it will tell you you can switch the power with a toggle switch.. in addition to the led indicator by routing the power line through a toggle switch..