I'm almost there on the re-power. Last time I wrote was giving the 90 etec a close look because of the warranty extension and the promo deals they currently have going. Also was looking at Honda and Yamaha; Honda way more expensive than the others. I also looked at Suzuki per 3weight's advice. It's looking like it will be a yamaha for a variety of reasons which I'll go into later. I'll keep you posted on the re-power. I'm just tying up the loose ends, getting final approval from the better half, and then I think I'll be good to go. Looking forward to smoke free fishing and not having to wait 15 minutes for ol' keith to warm up and start.
Who out there has a early model 17' sea ranger with a 90hp 4stroke yamaha? If you do, would you mind telling me what size prop you use?
Hi birdman: You won't be sorry going four stroke. We used to jokingly say two strokes were good for two things........motocross and chainsaws. If you know anything about motocross these days you probably now kow it might be down to only chainsaws.
Respectfully, Yat
P.S. Still waiting for Honda to come-out with my new chainsaw :biggrin:
You're in good company. I dont know how many outboards yamaha sells compared to other vendors but sometimes I get the feeling like they're locking the whole thing up. I've been in marinas where its 5:1 yamaha vs everybody else. Dont know why that is. Outside the US I've seen even higher, maybe its just where I live and travel.
The main reason for a wider ownership of Yamaha is the parts availability outside of the US. Trying to obtain parts in other regions is almost impossible for manufacturers like Honda.
VT
To be fair to us Honda guys....Honda demands the highest resale Price & has the best reliability ...That's what led me down the H path...
Just sayn... :biggrin:
Lovin My BF90D...
CG,
I am not bashing Honda at all. It is just hard to find parts for them. If there is not a dealer around it is almost impossible to get a fuel line connector anywhere. I have tried, and the manager at West Marine said it is difficult to stock parts. I have some friends in St. Thomas that run Yamahas due to the parts access.
Honda makes good motors but trying to find parts is like finding the right Lotto numbers. :shrug9:
VT
John,
No doubt about parts outside japan or USA... :biggrin:
just wanted to represent :biggrin:...
I must admit that Honda's require more costs in maintenance..unless you can do your own..
I do most of mine...I have a friend Marine Mechanic that does my heavy lifting...Valve Adjusts..Mostly..
Although It's not that hard either.. I am @ 900 hrs on a 2010 bF90D...
Gary.
Yo Gary (aka Honda fanboy) - Birdman is buying a Yamaha.
Hmm do you think Yamaha sells A. 500 B. 1000 C. 10000 outboards for every one Honda sells? :shrug9: I'm going with B. , just wondering because its fun to push your buttons. I tried to find some sales numbers but couldnt. Apparently Honda is able sustain their outboard division by saving development cost on motors, they just stick economy car motors in there (like geo metro motors? oh no thats gm).
VT: Check with Woody for those Lotto numbers
Birdman: I think you are really hitting the sweet spot with a 90 on a 17, regardless of the brand. :applause:
StreamFixer
Quote from: Grizzle on January 25, 2013, 08:49:33 AM
Yo Gary (aka Honda fanboy) - Birdman is buying a Yamaha.
Hmm do you think Yamaha sells A. 500 B. 1000 C. 10000 outboards for every one Honda sells? :shrug9: I'm going with B. , just wondering because its fun to push your buttons. I tried to find some sales numbers but couldnt. Apparently Honda is able sustain their outboard division by saving development cost on motors, they just stick economy car motors in there (like geo metro motors? oh no thats gm).
BUTTONS PUSHED:
Brook.. The engine you refer to as underdeveloped is the same V tech engine that's Proven for years in cars in my Honda Fit. :yeahthat:
:jester:
Got Me....:berry:
Birdman - probably the dealer will give you a reasonable suggestion on an overpriced stock white 3 bladed aluminum prop. Upgrading your prop at this point through them is not usually a path to success. I'd be ready when you pick the boat up to go out a couple of times within the next 7-10 days with the boat loaded up and test the prop. Swap it out with another overpriced stock aluminum prop from them until you get to max RPM (go all the way to max if you can ) with a load (bring friends, fill the tank, strap 400lbs of batteries into the boat, etc).
Then report back here what your performance specs are and we can go from there. Once we know your WOT rpm with the stock aluminum 3 blade we can go any direction you like. Personally I think the Solas 4 blade aluminum is a winner for $106 bucks.
Your numbers at WOT with a stock 3 blade aluminum prop and a loaded boat will be a better indicator on what prop you want than any other. Including buying what someone else is using.
Honda Fit huh? Fascinating sounds like a fun.
BTW - did I ever mention Eric builds race cars with Yamaha engines?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dZmroqr8yI
Yeah just sayin.....LOL
OK I'm stopping now. Cacao Cacao
You will be happy with the Yamaha. Honestly, I don't think any of the modern motors are "bad". Comes down to specs you are looking for (gearing, weight, alternator output, etc...) and local dealer support (the #1 issue IMO).
Quote from: Grizzle on January 25, 2013, 09:48:18 AM
Honda Fit huh? Fascinating sounds like a fun.
BTW - did I ever mention Eric builds race cars with Yamaha engines?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dZmroqr8yI
Yeah just sayin.....LOL
No... your keeping secrets again?
WOW!!
now those are Some Kinda GO Carts... :yeahthat:
:smile1:
Steve... Doing most of your Own Servicing is Best, I think, for several reasons.
Yet This Dealer PA Power, seems to provide Adequate Service and parts..
Bottom Line I have Pulled the Trigger Long ago..
And Now Have To Defend that decision...
Although... Hindsight provides me with this..
E-tec Might be the Best way to go...
Just Sayin... :biggrin:
Just funnin with Gary - of course they're all great. Don't know about that other car maker...
Full disclosure I own a Honda outboard, three generators, lawn mower, pressure washer, and an irreverent sense of humor
Sent from my RM-820_nam_att_100 using Board Express
..oh and I covet owning an e-tec
Sent from my RM-820_nam_att_100 using Board Express
Whenever I think of an Etec I get nostalgic for the smell and sound of my old two stroke dirt bikes.
Then I go next door and pay the neighbor kid to drag a tin bucket full of roofing nails up and down the street behind his bicycle, while I burn an old tire in the driveway. I get the same experience, without having to spend the $$ on gallons and gallons of two stroke oil :party:
3WT
you really should work on your tendency to hold back on your opinions.
Please, tell us what you really think :jester: :wink:
StreamFixer
A Honda needs parts??? Eighteen seasons on my 45 with only a water pump change........................what parts are you guys talking about?? :biggrin:
I just re-powered with a direct injected 90hp Tohatsu two stroke. It doesn't smoke like my old two strokes from yesteryear. I must admit, I went the Tohatsu route strictly for the "bang for the buck" thing but pleased so far.
I do have a four stroke Honda on my tin boat. I actually bought this motor from a Honda lawnmower shop! The owner of the shop even does warranty work on the outboard motor as well as stock most common parts.
Thanks for the funny posts! The guy who has worked on my boats for years said he would buy Honda first, Yamaha second. His opinion is that Honda's been "doing 4 strokes forever and they got it dialed." Cost is the prohibiting factor for me against Honda.
bird, that is was how I felt. I could not get a Honda dealer to move a penny. My old kicker at the time was a Yamaha 8 and it was the best motor I have ever had. So I talked to mark...shoreline mark....he had just got a good deal. I met the sales guy and we were able to put a deal together. 3 or 4 payments to him and the motor was mine. Good luck.
Sff
I went E-tec, and love it. the 90 horse is right on the money for it. If it went any faster, my kidneys would be on strike.
Sounds like the decision is near birdman. A really exciting time for sure, congrats.
We all have our list from one to five in terms of favorites. I agree, all of them are good. Honda's have quite a following in Alaska and for good reason.
I hope to buy a good used one at some point.
The E-tec and buying two stroke oil is a moot point really. And they don't smoke or smell ether. I spent some time on a boat with one. At least I did not notice it. Not once.
I forgot So Cali you bought and E-tec. You and Salmon King are two here who have the E-tec and are both quite happy. I believe Zarn has one too. The list is getting longer :beerchug:
I know where there is a late model 115 Yamaha four stroke that is about $3000 over my budget :berry:
The addition to my shop going on right now is over budget too and is bad timing :shrug9:
I remember following So Cali and Zarn's re-power projects. Like you all have said, I'm not sure you can go wrong with any of the late model 4 strokes or the etec. Anything can be better than my old smoker. I darn near get sick every time I'm salmon trolling because of the smell! Not to mention at the dock when I'm warming it up and all the patrons are giving me foul (pun intended) looks. I'll keep you posted on the progress of my project, with pictures, of course.
If stern weight is an issue for you (as it was for me) then remember the Etec is lighter.
I did not wish to relocate the batteries or fuel tank, etc. Also...When I got my motor I happened across a SCREAMIN' deal
I'm extremely pleased with the performance and economy.
Stern weight is definitely an issue. I figure with the improved fuel economy expected with a 4 stroke I can get rid of the external 18 gallon tank I've had in the port, stern area and replace it with a smaller portable tank up front; I've got the 23 gallon tank for the primary fuel supply. I'm thinking this will compensate for the extra weight I'm gaining with the 4 stroke. Thoughts?
Just :twocents: but weight hanging off the very back of the boat vs weight on the floor near the back of the boat is slightly different. I view it a bit different anyways.
Cluttered floor space in a 17' Arima can be troublesome as deck space is compromised for fishing and trapping.
I would want to know the exact weight of what I was removing compared to what I was replacing it with in terms of motors.
The weight would be "one" of the biggest considerations for me. TWenty pounds or more is enough to affect how the boat will sit, feel and preform.
Bird, now that you are almost ready to jump start thinking about the install, if you want to change where the cables come from? There are a few covers for the cables on the market? Hydraulic steering?
I used the boat show last year as my show front. I looked at every motor that was mounted!
Sff
actually i like the smell of 2 stroke in the morning. it smells like victory ! :dance: ( actually i do like it, though as others have said with the new direct injection motors you do not get the nector of the gods smell when you start and run it anymore :shrug9:) my kicker is an old 2 stroke and i run it at times just to inhale the intoxicating odor. ok, that part is not true. my point is the new di strokers will give you the power spurt you are used to and not the odor you and your snooty dock mates don't enjoy ( you poor misguided wretches ) don't shy away from an etec or even a optimax if the price is right. yamaha and tohatsu do not make di strokers in the lower HP range.
I spent a couple of hours talking to Don from Arima before I re-powered. He had no worries about a 340# or even 400# motor on a 17' hull (for the record, the Optimax 90 is a 400# motor, heavier than any of the Japanese 4 stroke 90's). ALL of the new Arima's are coming with Honda's that weigh just as much as the motor you are looking at. The weight difference really isn't anything to stress about.
Don's advice was to view weight in the stern as a ride and trim of the boat thing, and to always seek "balance" (he actually cracked a couple of Buddha jokes). You want to be able to adjust the trim of the boat wherever you want it, including bow down so that the sharpest part of the hull hits the chop first. Stern heavy = rougher ride. Really stern heavy (as in lots of extra fuel, ice, fish, etc... back there) also means bad fuel economy, as the rear ends up wanting to plow rather than slide over the top of the water (I had this problem last summer Tuna! fishing).
On the 17' Rangers, Don's advice was to fill up the freshwater tank in the bow and keep it full. Folks who move the batteries forward accomplish the same thing (moving roughly 100# off the stern into the bow, and mounting it down low for good center of gravity). Don's advice for my 17' Chaser was to remove my porta-potty, get a square bucket, and fill it with all of my halibut weights and down rigger balls, and put it in the cuddy in place of the porta potty. I actually did this and it worked great. A set of Smart Tabs really helped as well.
Come to the Neah Bay gathering in May and you will see 16' and 17' Arima's carrying loads that makes the extra 80-100# you are looking at seem like nothing. Just remember that you have that extra poundage back there, and when you load the boat up in the future you do need to make sure you are loading the boat in a balanced fashion, with some heavy stuff in the bow to keep things in trim.
The one thing I would say could be a safety issue is where the dealer who originally rigged your boat cut the hole for the cable steering. On my boat, that hole was cut WAY down low, and in windy following sea I could sometimes get slop coming in though that hole. I believe a number of us have experience that in a 16' or 17' hull. I solved it on my boat by patching that hole and switching to hydraulic steering. Some have built a clam type cover out of starboard and sealed it.
I have a problem with the math, how do i pencil out a new etec 90hp {white of course } for my 17sc when my 1987 70hp yamaha blue smoke billowing ,peta hating mosquito killing, fish an bird polluting , women an children crying , 2 stroke has nothing wrong with it?
Do i get rid of it because it,s old?
slacker
Sorry, I am just anal about a heavy stern. If you are dealing with a 90hp on a 17', you are fine period.
Slacker, go for it. Your 70hp has value with such a beautiful list of qualities. They SELL! :smile1:
Slacker, I understand where you are coming from but for me it was easier. I realized that as my old motor got older, and things start to break and wear out, it's gonna need parts. These parts get harder to come by through the years. I also like to go out as far as I can reasonably go so the fuel consumption between the motors of old compared to today's motors is quite different. I really liked what the E-Tec had to offer in the ways of reliability and fuel consumption. When I got mine, BRP had a promotional package that just sweetened the deal. I considered weight as well. I don't run a kicker motor, but I have a fat ass, so every bit out helps. The E-Tec has no problem with power and just sips fuel. Starts without a problem every time and is warmed up and ready to go in minutes. If you get a chance to go for a ride in an E-Tec powered boat, go for it. I enjoy mine. The peace of mind is great that I don't have to worry about the motor working or not. I suppose any new motor today will give you that peace of mind.
Slacker, the only reason you buy that new motor is piece of mind. If your 70hp is perfect then there is no reason for new. It will just be a matter of time for a new motor though and the brand or technology of a buying a 4 stroke or buying into the 2 stroke is all it really comes down to.
SFF
I like NEW...I would Love NEW white 90hp ....But i am still not there, Too old an lazy ,no trigger pulling just taking it on an off safe...
I can say that new will give you a feeling of security but it is still a mechanical device.
Just bought a honda civic in 2011 an in less that a thousand miles i had a wheel bearing go out
I guess i am real old school ( caveman old ) why replace whats not broken.
slacker
Hey Threeweight: What did you mean by "ALL of the new Arimas are coming with Hondas?" Is Arima/Defiance rigging with motors? If they are and equipping with Hondas, all I've got to say is... :smile1:
Yat
Slacker
It doesn't pencil out.
Woody
Ahhhh, come on Woody. There is all kinds of folks putting on new motors that cost 2-1/2 times what their boat is worth. Whattya talking about, "it does'nt pencil out"? :food: :smile1:
Owning a boat of any kind is not compatible with the principles of honest financial accounting :facepalm:
Yachter, I should have said all of the new Defiance-Arima boats at the show were Honda equipped. Defiance maintains a relatively small dealer network in the NW, and does mostly direct sales. They rig their boats with Hondas (but I understand they will do other brands if the customer requests it as a special option).
I'm not sure what that means for the Arima dealer network. There were several 2012 boats (with the white hulls) at the show that Don and others had "borrowed" from dealers in the Northwest to fill out the booth at the show.
BOAT=bust out another thousand. That's what was happening with my old 2 stroke. Every 2-3 trips something new was going wrong that required a trip to the mechanic. I'm handy but I don't diagnose that well. I could've spent the money to keep getting it fixed, but peace of mind is a nice thing. I certainly am not buying a new motor just because of no smoke, that's just gravy on top of the potatoes. Lastly, buying a motor that is worth way more than the old hull? Well, I'm not sure I can explain that.
Realistically, the motors on our boats typically account for about 2/3's of their worth. A new motor just adds to the value, and your peace of mind. They use a lot less fuel too!
So Cal I like that accounting 2/3 motors, 2/3 boat, 1/3 electronics and such. If you say it fast enough to the wife it will all add up. Just don't tell her you are into a 15k boat over 20k and there is no way to ever re-coup the difference. :party: :doh: It is all put on : I need it to be safe !!!
H-T
Guys lets not look at the real numbers. I know this first hand on my tub of money. I will say I m the kind of guy that most Likely would never buy a new boat. So with every improvement on my boat it gets me closer to my New boat. My new motor took me from a used to a new boat. Also remember guys you don't need a big credit card or a wad of cash to buy the new motor. You can make the deal and then make payments to the dealer. Go get that motor!
SFF
HT, I'll go along with that! The motor makes up about 80% of the value on mine. She still has a ways to go before being real nice. Im just happy it works, and I can take it fishing. I still have a few gremlins to work out of it.
Woody taught me this valuation method:
A used 17 Hull, in good shape, is worth about $7K, of course other sizes will vary a bit. Then add the trailer, motor and electronics values, plus whatever extra goodies are offered.
Seems to be pretty accurate
StreamFixer